jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 19, 2016 17:52:00 GMT -5
Rotational velocity and stone size also play. jamesp stated such about stone size in another thread. The few weeks I had my MJR running I had absolutely grit break down at 6" PVC barrel, 80rpm, potato size and less stones in 2 days. Nothing under 1". I used three scoops of kitty litter. Baker sized Montana agates almost ready for the next step in two weeks. Soon. I will be able to play and add to the conversation. Learning from Jim I learned experimentation is key. Scott, when I was fooling around with 1-2 inch obsidian at a slowed 17 RPM the 30 grit broke down in 2 days using the red clay. Something about that red clay is working.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2016 18:49:03 GMT -5
jamespRed clay = kaolin? Kitty litter = kaolin
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 19, 2016 22:13:17 GMT -5
jamespRed clay = kaolin? Kitty litter = kaolin We are rich in kaolin and certain that our red clay has kaolin. Well, reading about slurry and found other weird factors beyond my understanding that effect slurry. Ion exchange, conductivity, gelling due to excess silica content, broken down colloidals. Technical stuff way beyond me. High iron content for example, what effect might that have ? A study in Nigerian rivers, red clay was the last clay to precipitate. Why ? I give up on the why's and just glad it works. Articles in the beginning of this thread discuss these factors. Can you decipher ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2016 2:48:35 GMT -5
Haven't read them in detail. Battling strep throat. mind weak.
Promise a thoughtful read to see if I can decipher
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 20, 2016 6:16:08 GMT -5
Haven't read them in detail. Battling strep throat. mind weak. Promise a thoughtful read to see if I can decipher Good luck. Chemistry kicks me out of the saddle.
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Post by orrum on Nov 20, 2016 7:48:30 GMT -5
I want to try 30 grit with my system. I save slurry and let it dry. Then in a barrel I put dry chunks of slurry with 46/70 grit and let it roll for 2 months. Then a lot of them are ready to move to the loto. I want to try 30 grit the same way. Maybe most of them will be ready for the loto!
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tkvancil
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Post by tkvancil on Nov 20, 2016 10:02:32 GMT -5
For what its worth I've been using 30 grit for three weeks now. I've got 3 lortone 12# barrels going.
Been doing full clean outs and NOT using any thickeners. No trouble with the grit not breaking down.
I do believe the 30 is a faster grind than 46/70 based on one of the barrels. This barrel has "hangers on", rocks I'm trying to grind off the last flaw. I'm seeing a greater reduction in volume over the week using 30.
I could see how in smaller (3# barrels) the 30 might not break down as well. When I used 3 pounders I never had trouble with 80 grit breaking down using 4 tbs. grit. However when I changed to 60/90 I had to drop down to 3 tbs. grit to get it all to break down.
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napoleonrags
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Post by napoleonrags on Nov 20, 2016 20:53:06 GMT -5
I run three barrels - 2 Qt12s, and a high speed Model B. One Qt12 runs noticibly slower than the other, so I run softer stuff in it (glass, feldspar, epidote, and jasper that looks soft) with 3/4 cup 30 grit, a bit more water, and a bit more filled. On the high speed I add 1.5 cups of 30 and 1/4 cup of kitty litter; after 2 days I add another cup of 30, and in another 2 days a thin cup of 30 and sometimes some water. On the faster Qt12 I start with a cup of 30 and 2 tablespoons of litter; after 3 days I usually add 3/4 cup of 30. By the end of the week I usually have enough to feed Audrey, the Lot-o, but I often have to be creative.
SIC 30 works very well for me, but it's taken awhile to figure it out.
Gather no moss, Colin
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 21, 2016 6:32:58 GMT -5
tkvancil orrum napoleonragsCommon sense says coarser grit = faster material removal. So the motivation to use coarser grit. In the early days I found that reducing the water to half way up the rocks would get those 30's to stick and start breaking down the first couple days. About 2 days later after slurry has started I would add more water to the normal 'just below the rocks'. From then on I never did clean outs. Maintained the slurry thru the whole coarse grind, BUT, poured some slurry off and added fresh water to prevent slurry from getting too thick. Now, I just add a cup of red clay and 1/2 cup SiC 30 and water to just below rocks and let er rip. The very next day the grit is splattered to nothing. Add a ~half cup EVERY day for a week and then do a clean out day 6-7. Refresh with one cup clay and ~1/2 cup 30 and do it all over again for 6-7 days. By end of third week those rocks look like 10-12 weeks or better. I actually under dose for 6 pounds and use less than 1/2 cup SiC 30 daily. Full 1/2 cup is OK but I go lighter due to daily grit additions. 6 pound PVC barrel, conservative 30 RPM, some barrels with 1.5 to 2 inch rocks, some with 1 to 2 inch rocks with a single 1 to 2 pound rock. Theory blurb: The strong suction that the red clay creates on the rocks has to have an effect on the grind rate. The white slurry from the coral causes suction forces too. Yet very slick like the red clay assisting lubrication. Those rocks are stuck together like magnets. Then the rotary rolls them with this suction force. A constant force between the rocks pulling them together. Add grit between them and a strong grinding action is sure possible. The articles posted early in this thread discuss --ionic attraction-- and --conductivity-- which may be a technical term for suction. Other slurries created from your rocks wearing may cause these suction forces too. Why does two slurry coated tumbles stick together ? Even when you hold the top tumble and gravity does not pull the bottom tumble away from it ? Wet red clay is famous for pulling your boots off. Not sand... Even if this 'suction' force is small it may have profound effects rolling 24 hours a day. Similar subject: Cohesive forces
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 21, 2016 6:42:48 GMT -5
Beyond my scope of knowledge, definition for cohesive forces:
Cohesion (from Latin cohaerere "stick or stay together") or cohesive attraction or cohesive force is the action or property of like molecules sticking together, being mutually attractive. It is an intrinsic property of a substance that is caused by the shape and structure of its molecules, which makes the distribution of orbiting electrons irregular when molecules get close to one another, creating electrical attraction that can maintain a microscopic structure such as a water drop. In other words, cohesion allows for surface tension, creating a "solid-like" state upon which light (in weight) or low-density materials can be placed.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 21, 2016 6:54:22 GMT -5
Types of slurries in the lapping industry. Lapping not the same as tumbling, but similar. Oil soluble, water soluble, Emulsion, Permanent suspension and colloidal shaped abrasives. Rock tumbling has the benefit of constant mixing so it would fall under Permanent suspension most likely.
Oil Soluble • Provides superior lap plate wetting and film protection for hard laps such as ceramic, cast iron, and series HY composite laps Engis Corporation Engis Corporation Engis HYPREZ® Family of Diamond and Non-Diamond Lapping Slurries
Engis HYPREZ® Family of Diamond and Non-Diamond Lapping Slurries Engis Corporation Engis Corporation Engis Corporation Engis Corporation • Excellent on most metal and carbide parts with excellent cleanability Engis Corporation • Especially popular for finishing materials where a highly reflective finish is desired Engis Corporation • Workhorse oil soluble slurry: S1313 Engis Corporation
Water Soluble • Used as an alternative to oil based slurries in applications sensitive to oil content Engis Corporation • Widely used in the processing of electronic and electro-optical components as well as single crystal semiconductor substrates, and magnetic read/write head Engis Corporation • Workhorse water soluble slurry: S4889 Engis Corporation
Emulsion • Works well with Engis Hyprelube or W lubricant and is particularly suited for use with polishing cloths and pads Engis Corporation • Maintains dispersion of diamonds in the finer micron sizes without settling for long periods of time Engis Corporation • Re-disperses easily with shaking Engis Corporation • Workhorse emulsion slurry: S841 Engis Corporation
Permanent Suspension • Some applications require oil and or water soluble slurries that do not need to be stirred during the process Engis Corporation • Suspensions exhibit excellent performance for a wide range of applications and are available in concentrate form, which can be diluted by the customer Engis Corporation • Workhorse suspension slurry: S4243 Engis Corporation
Colloidal Aluminas and Silicas • Engis offers non-diamond abrasive slurries as well for your final polish operations as well as softer materials which do not require diamond. Engis Corporation
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 21, 2016 7:06:32 GMT -5
I run three barrels - 2 Qt12s, and a high speed Model B. One Qt12 runs noticibly slower than the other, so I run softer stuff in it (glass, feldspar, epidote, and jasper that looks soft) with 3/4 cup 30 grit, a bit more water, and a bit more filled. On the high speed I add 1.5 cups of 30 and 1/4 cup of kitty litter; after 2 days I add another cup of 30, and in another 2 days a thin cup of 30 and sometimes some water. On the faster Qt12 I start with a cup of 30 and 2 tablespoons of litter; after 3 days I usually add 3/4 cup of 30. By the end of the week I usually have enough to feed Audrey, the Lot-o, but I often have to be creative. SIC 30 works very well for me, but it's taken awhile to figure it out. Gather no moss, Colin Rubber barrels Colin ? There has been a suspicion that PVC barrels are causing fast grit break down. Sounds like you are adding grit every two days using rubber. If the hard PVC is cracking the grit it would probably be a bad thing. I am suspicious that the suction forces of good slurry is breaking the grit down due to harder grinding action.
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napoleonrags
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Post by napoleonrags on Nov 21, 2016 22:54:50 GMT -5
I run three barrels - 2 Qt12s, and a high speed Model B. One Qt12 runs noticibly slower than the other, so I run softer stuff in it (glass, feldspar, epidote, and jasper that looks soft) with 3/4 cup 30 grit, a bit more water, and a bit more filled. On the high speed I add 1.5 cups of 30 and 1/4 cup of kitty litter; after 2 days I add another cup of 30, and in another 2 days a thin cup of 30 and sometimes some water. On the faster Qt12 I start with a cup of 30 and 2 tablespoons of litter; after 3 days I usually add 3/4 cup of 30. By the end of the week I usually have enough to feed Audrey, the Lot-o, but I often have to be creative. SIC 30 works very well for me, but it's taken awhile to figure it out. Gather no moss, Colin Rubber barrels Colin ? There has been a suspicion that PVC barrels are causing fast grit break down. Sounds like you are adding grit every two days using rubber. If the hard PVC is cracking the grit it would probably be a bad thing. I am suspicious that the suction forces of good slurry is breaking the grit down due to harder grinding action. Yes, rubber or rubber lined barrels which seemingly slows down the breakdown. I see the slurry more as adhesion rather than suction, but I didn't much understand a lot of what you posted. I try to optimize the tumbling with the grit, time, electricity equation - but I ain't no Einstein. More trial and error than theory. For mad scientist's rock I read your posts. Colin
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 22, 2016 2:37:08 GMT -5
Success by trail and error rules. Theory is only words. Grind on napoleonrags. Thanks for the input.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 12:09:38 GMT -5
I read your various cut and paste stuff.
It all says what you have been saying. The clay has electrical properties that suspend the grit and hold the stones together.
Interesting note I did notice is that adding silica (tiny pieces of agate and jasper cut by grit, in our case) causes the suspension to break and become a gel. This explains our gut and our experience telling us when a slurry is too thick it doesn't work properly. The gel is permanent and irreversible, at least that's what the essay said.
The professional product descriptions make me think they are using the clay components they desire in pure form. No clay, just the sweet sauce part(s)of it. In a production setting results must be precise and consistent. This allows for that whereas clay won't. It also allows for tuning various slurries for different applications and grits. I noted that diamond and alox slurries not equal.
For us, meatball slurries are fine, precision not a target.
I'm almost done being sick. Working light today. Feel better. Back to.my tumbler a bit. Then vacation for tday
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 22, 2016 13:15:53 GMT -5
I read your various cut and paste stuff. It all says what you have been saying. The clay has electrical properties that suspend the grit and hold the stones together. Interesting note I did notice is that adding silica (tiny pieces of agate and jasper cut by grit, in our case) causes the suspension to break and become a gel. This explains our gut and our experience telling us when a slurry is too thick it doesn't work properly. The gel is permanent and irreversible, at least that's what the essay said. The problem product descriptions make me think they are using the clay components they desire in pure form. No clay, just the sweet sauce part(s)of it. In a production setting results must be precise and consistent. This allows for that whereas clay won't. It also allows for tuning various slurries for different applications and grits. I noted that diamond and alox slurries not equal. For us, meatball slurries are fine, precision not a target. I'm almost done being sick. Working light today. Feel better. Back to.my tumbler a bit. Then vacation for tday Thanks Scott. I know clay from potting water plants in it for 25 years. I dig it from certain areas on the farm. If it is too pasty I have the bulldozer mix it with sandy loam. Like the farmer that can pinch soil between his fingers and say it is 43% clay and 57% sand. Peak years, 10,000 one gallon pots per year. Much easier to fill the pots if sand:clay ratio is perfect or else employees bitch all year. When tearing down pots to divide propagation stock the pasty clay causes difficulty in washing it free from the roots. To high a clay content in the pots muddies my customer's ponds and the they bitch. Well, there is a pile of mixed sandy clay just outside the door from the tumblers convenient. It lasts 2-3 days and then the grit is no longer suspended and will NOT break down. I went to a section on the farm where the super pasty sand free clay is and started using it. Super pasty runs a whole week before it stops carrying grit. It is the simple ratio of pure clay to pure sand(silica). There is no reason not to focus on high performance slurries if it is as cheap as using a clay in the ground or readily available as kitty litter or bagged kaolin. You surmised it is electrical properties as I did. Not no chemist but reading the dope on industrial slurries it started to come together. Along with a lot of mention of silica:colloid ratios-boom, right in line with silica based rocks we tumble go figure. I have washed plants potted in pasty clay, the catchment pond stays red stained for weeks. Nasty stuff. Sandy clay for a few days. Sandy soil for hours. It is the electrical properties and the colloidal particles that float well. All this stumbled on by accident tumbling that coral with the soft rind making that lily white slurry. Very first rock I built tumblers for had a perfect built in slurry additive. Ran it with SiC 8 and 16 no problem. Get well and quit catting around so much
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 15:49:49 GMT -5
Catting around?
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Post by Garage Rocker on Nov 22, 2016 16:09:19 GMT -5
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 22, 2016 18:55:43 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 19:26:49 GMT -5
Lol
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