budified
off to a rocking start
Member since November 2016
Posts: 21
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Post by budified on Nov 24, 2016 11:16:54 GMT -5
Hey follow rock hounds!
I'll start by introducing myself as I am new here and this is my first post.
Hi I'm Bud.
I've been a lover of rocks, wood, and everything nature my while life. I get to play with rocks all day every day, I cut countertops for a living. I have been lucky enough to deal with alot of different types of materials in my 10 years in the trade, quartzite, travertine, onyx, petrified wood, limestone, soapstone, marble, granite and even agates. I enjoy looking at all the different types of slabs that I cut and the beauty that nature has created. I have artistic rights and love to take a beautiful slab of stone and turn it into a piece of artwork to surround a fireplace, shower, or whatever the intended use is.
This trade leaves me with tons upon tons of beautiful scraps, and generally they go off to the landfill.
I have tumbled scraps from cut-off before, many pieces that some fussy lapping enthusiasts would shake their head at. In fact the full pound of course grit that came with my tumbler was wasted away tumbling rough, sharp edged, square cornered, cracked, pitted, generally not for the tumbler type of stones. They look beautiful in my fish tank, but I am left with no coarse media and a price tag of $350 if I want to buy 50lb of grit.
Which brings me here.
In my search for a local supplier of bulk SiC, my efforts were fruitless, but I was pointed in the direction of a possible alternate media which could save me huge amounts of money, and brought home 100 lbs of a product called Hornet Abrasive, manufactured by Mohawk Abrasives. It is measured at 30/40 grit, and the claim is that it has a hardness of 6.5-8 or 8.5, consisting of a few different types of material.
I tossed in a 3/4 load of granite scraps, added considerably more than the recommended amount of grit, at least twice as much as you would put if using SiC, and topped up with water.
After tumbling for 3 days I opened the barrel to see that it was full of vqery dirty frothy foam. There was not much water left and from what I could tell the media was spent. I added another half cup or more if grit and topped up again with water and repeated the cycle.
After tumbling 3 more days I opened the barrel to again see an abundance of what I can only describe as a concrete froth. The bubbly froth is so thick that it maintains form, when you touch it it turns to a sludge on your finger.
After the 6 days of tumbling I found my scraps had a considerable round on the square edges and the rough parts had been "smoothed" enough to say that the grit is doing an alright job.
I removed and rinsed the chunks of granite, got rid of the froth, left in my smaller filler rocks and the heavy slurry that remained, and moved to round 2.
I filled my barrel half full of granite scrap, this batch having much less squared edges but considerably more sharp and rough edges. I poured probably 3 cups of the Hornet Abrasive in, added water to a bit less than 3/4 of the barrel, and placed in back on the rollers.
That was last night so I am unaware of the results, but I am hoping having a thick slurry of the grit will increase the amount of material removal.
I will continue to post my results as the process of experimentation moves forward.
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budified
off to a rocking start
Member since November 2016
Posts: 21
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Post by budified on Nov 24, 2016 13:05:04 GMT -5
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2016 20:58:02 GMT -5
You pics don't show. Permissions related likely. Hornet is garnet. Will work for most stuff.... Slower than SiC. Where do you live? Some photos of the current barrel Slurry Rocks Hornet Abrasive Bag Abrasive Large amount of abrasive media in mix Topped up with water
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Post by Jugglerguy on Nov 24, 2016 21:03:56 GMT -5
Hi Bud, welcome to the forum. There are a lot of knowledgable people here to help you out. I buy my coarse grit from Kingsley North. Here's a link to fifty pounds of 46/70 grit for $88.. If you Use 80 grit, it's even cheaper. Your picture links aren't working for me. Most people use Flickr or Photobucket and copy the BB code here. Google photos might work too, I haven't tried it.
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El JeffA
spending too much on rocks
Member since February 2016
Posts: 353
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Post by El JeffA on Nov 24, 2016 23:14:24 GMT -5
Hornet Abrasive was easily looked up. You can buy it from the Kleen Blast website for $9 per 55 lb bag. It is primarily used in sandblasting.
The makeup of Hornet is listed at; 30-60% hornblende (5-6 on Mohs scale...about the same as glass), 30-60% garnet (6.5-7.5, high quality almandine garnet goes to 8.5 hardness), < 3% mica and < 1% quartz. It seems that it will take a long time to shape anything harder than about 5 or 6 hardness and the makeup would account for the large amount of slurry you were getting. Silicon carbide has a hardness of 9.2-9.3 and is why it is used to shape most rocks in the 7-7.5 hardness range.
Sorry, I know that is not the answer you were hoping for. Welcome to the forum. Hang in there and keep experimenting...we hope to see some pics of your results. Jeff A
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budified
off to a rocking start
Member since November 2016
Posts: 21
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Post by budified on Nov 24, 2016 23:52:09 GMT -5
Sorry about the photos, I have changed the sharing settings, hopefully it works now.
Shotgunner
I live in Calgary, Alberta.
Jugglerguy
Thanx for the link, I've been looking there today, people here have been saying they get the 30# in a flat rate box, I'm wondering if it is the same rate to ship that box to Canada...
El Jeffa
The abrasive shop I got it from sells it for $9/bag as well, but that is Canadian price so more like +/-$6.50 USD, LoL.
I was lucky and paid $10 cash for 2 bags off the back shelf, nothing wrong with the bags so not sure why.
And lastly, you may have actually given me the answer I was looking for...
I went to the abrasive shop looking for SiC, they do not carry it but could order it in. I am not a business, only looking for a bag or 2 at the moment, so I don't think they would order it in such small supply, but it is worth a try. Anyways, they sold me the Hornet Abrasive dirt cheap so I figured I would take it and try it. The results on the first barrel after only 6 days were impressive compared to my expectations after 3 days.
My alternate would have been garnet had he not sold me on the Hornet. I have used garnet in a water jet before and I know it hasn't had any problem cutting through the granite at high speeds, with only a small amount of help from 55,000psi water blasting it through.
I can order 1 Ton of SiC from China for the low cost of about 44 cents per pound including shipping, but then I would be subjected to selling it dirt cheap to drive the local Lapidary prices down.
$350 for 50lb is just uncanny...
Giving that I don't require a nice shape or polish, would almandine garnet be my best bet?
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quartz
Cave Dweller
breakin' rocks in the hot sun
Member since February 2010
Posts: 3,352
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Post by quartz on Nov 25, 2016 0:28:33 GMT -5
I'm not to hot on having to sign in w/google to see your pics.
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budified
off to a rocking start
Member since November 2016
Posts: 21
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Post by budified on Nov 25, 2016 0:42:47 GMT -5
I'll try photo bucket tomorrow, I'll definitely have the pictures up her as the process moves forward.
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agatemaggot
Cave Dweller
Member since August 2006
Posts: 2,195
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Post by agatemaggot on Nov 25, 2016 1:05:43 GMT -5
IF YOU WANT TO TRY STRAIGHT GARNET, GO TO A COMPANY THAT HAS A WATER-JET MACHINE. THEY WILL give YOU ALL THE USED GARNET YOU CAN CARRY OFF BECAUSE THEY CAN ONLY USE IT ONCE. THEY USUALLY HAVE A SMALL MOUNTAIN BEHIND ONE OF THEIR BUILDINGS AND MOST OFTEN THEY EVEN SEND SOMEONE TO HELP YOU FILL YOUR BUCKETS. WATER JET MATERIAL IS A FINER GRADE BUT THE PRICE IS RIGHT !
THE PRICE OF THE GAS TO GET TO THE PILE AND BACK HOME !
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
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Post by jamesp on Nov 25, 2016 4:26:01 GMT -5
Here is the Knoop hardness scale. www.tedpella.com/company_html/hardness.htmMost people tumble agates and similar hardness pet wood, some jaspers, crystalline quartz's. They are easy to polish because they are hard. These rocks are hard enough that even aluminum oxide will not hardly shape them, just finish polish them. Best bang for your buck tumbling rocks is silicon carbide. Kingsley North sells 45-50 pounds coarse SiC for $88 + shipping. I can save you some time with garnet. Have used it in rotary and vibe, water jet garnet and #4 garnet. It only puts a buff finish and does no cutting or shaping. Blasting aluminum oxide (#60-#80=#220) will lay a buff or polish down much faster. Knoop hardnesses: Garnet 1360 Aluminum Oxide 2100 Silicon Carbide 2400 Diamond 7000 silicon carbide is deceptively aggressive because it is super sharp and cuts fast #4(grit size) almandine abrasive garnet from Emerald Creek Idaho. Works great as media in the vibe when finishing. Fills voids between pea sized media. Breaks aluminum oxide down to polish quickly. Lasts forever.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
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Post by jamesp on Nov 25, 2016 4:31:04 GMT -5
Not many people can tumble polish granite, it is part hard quartz and part softer felspar. The felspar wears faster than the quartz(under cuts). Granite polishes well with a diamond pad no doubt, but tumbling erodes the felspar because tumbling process gouges unlike a flat polishing pad.
If your experiments lead you to a way to tumble polish granite please share. Most have taken a whooping trying granite.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
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Post by jamesp on Nov 25, 2016 4:47:08 GMT -5
Agatized coral vibratory tumbled in #4 almandine garnet. Basically put a buff finish down, no shaping. Ah - matte finish is the term. This coral very hard, telling how hard garnet is. Garnet some tough stuff. It was a great battle, garnet won. Garnet makes great blasting/water jet media because it is tough, takes high speed impact well with out shattering as much. Also cheap. www.flickr.com/photos/67205364@N06/albums/72157677045717355
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
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Post by jamesp on Nov 25, 2016 5:11:05 GMT -5
I think Hornet abrasive has a lot of slag glass in it. Other furnace impurities. Makes froth, bubbles, gas when tumbled with H2O. Can cause serious pressure in a sealed tumbler barrel. Beware of such pressures, swollen barrels, leakage, caps flying. I use 4" Fernco rubber caps on my PVC barrels. Held on with two band clamps when tumbling glass materials. Had them bulging 1.5 inches... I have aimed the barrel straight up in the air when loosening the band clamps lol. +100 feet straight up toward the sky. Along with slurry vomit. Raccoon eyes. ha ha
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budified
off to a rocking start
Member since November 2016
Posts: 21
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Post by budified on Nov 25, 2016 9:53:34 GMT -5
Thank you all for the input!
Agatemaggot
As I said, I have used a water jet before, but we most certainly didn't dump our used garnet anywhere. We had it hauled out by a vac-truck, and in most cases were charge thousands of dollars for dumping fees because it "looks" like a toxic substance, like dumping kool-aid in a field, LoL.
I might try that though of I choose to try garnet, as not all shops are the same...
Jamesp
Alot of useful information, thank you.
Are you speaking from experience along the lines of pressurization, as in, have you used the Hornet Abrasive before? Or have you experienced that purely from working with glass?
I haven't had any kind of noticeable pressure increase when opening the barrel, just alot of froth.
Again, I don't expect to have a nice shine on what I am doing, so it is not much of a concern to me, but for many people here I assume it would be worth it to know if you could use Hornet as a cheap first run before using coarse SiC, to reduce cost if nothing else.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2016 19:33:43 GMT -5
Here the SiC here is less than US$2/# why is yours over $8?
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budified
off to a rocking start
Member since November 2016
Posts: 21
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Post by budified on Nov 25, 2016 20:14:05 GMT -5
Here the SiC here is less than US$2/# why is yours over $8? I have no idea, it is $8.50 (CAD not USD) for 1 lb, or $7/lb in 50 lb quantity... I went to the abrasive supply shop again today, the guy tried to sell me on aluminum oxide saying that any time people ask for SiC he sells them AlO and it cuts nice and is reusable. I think for the same reason as garnet though, because it rounds instead of sharding, which from what I am aware is not as efficient in cutting the stone. That is the reason I chose to try the Hornet Abrasive, because they claim it shards. It was their year-end for tax year today. They will have absolutely everything inventoried by the end of the weekend, and the company is Canada - wide so the guy is going to call to his other shops Monday morning to see if they have a couple bags they can throw on with the next shipment to save me the shipping costs. He said it should be around $100 (roughly $74.50 USD ((HaHa))) without any shipping costs. I told him the price they charge at the local Lapidary and that is the only place to get it and he is now thinking of ordering it in and supplying the lapidary at obviously a lower price than they are getting it for now. I may contact the owner of the lapidary and suggest I introduce him to a supplier at a lower price but only if he reflects half the savings on to the customer, or possibly even be the middleman and tell the supplier to just let me handle it...
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budified
off to a rocking start
Member since November 2016
Posts: 21
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Post by budified on Nov 25, 2016 20:22:14 GMT -5
On another note, the test subject abrasive was pretty broken down after day 2, having thrown a large amount in it was still easy enough to find some grit remaining, but I added a bunch more.
There was again no pressure caused by crushing the abrasive, and there are no frothy bubbles yesterday or today, a nice thick grey water. I may have lost water during the first barrel, but I didn't notice any sign of leakage at any time.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2016 21:12:39 GMT -5
US$75/bag is really good!
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budified
off to a rocking start
Member since November 2016
Posts: 21
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Post by budified on Nov 25, 2016 23:54:51 GMT -5
Okay PhotoBucket is a go... Mud and small rock Rough granite chunks Hornet Abrasive bag Hornet blend 1/2 full barrel Covered in media Topped with water
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budified
off to a rocking start
Member since November 2016
Posts: 21
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Post by budified on Nov 26, 2016 0:00:34 GMT -5
Could you imagine going from OMG $350/50lb bag to OMG that's a really good price!!!
The bad part about being a miser though is that even a good deal like that is still more than I would like to pay, LoL.
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