osuguy0301
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since December 2015
Posts: 203
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Post by osuguy0301 on Feb 6, 2017 16:48:48 GMT -5
I am getting ready to run my second batch in my Loto using AO 80. Talking with jamesp he has been using 2 Tablespoons of AO 80 with 2 Tablespoons of Borax in his 14lb. vibe and when I ran mine the first time I used approximately 1 Tablespoon of AO 80 with 1 Tablespoon of Borax. My slurry seemed to be pretty sticky and I had to keep putting water in multiple times a day to get a creamy consistency. The Loto is 4.5lbs and doing a Tablespoons per pounds of rock calculation off of what Jamesp has been using I came up with the amount for a 4.5lb Loto to be .64 Tablespoons which would convert into exactly 2 teaspoons (actually .66 Tablespoons would be exact). "x" Tablespoons/4.5lb = 2 Tablespoons/14lb... 14x = 9... 9/14 = .64 Tablespoons Does this make sense? Would this be an appropriate amount? If so, Should I just stick with 1 Tablespoon of Borax since thats what I use with my AO 14,000 too? If this seems to be logical than I am gonna try a run this way and see what happens. If I am out in left field I will just run 1 Tablespoon again. Thanks, Jake
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 6, 2017 17:23:54 GMT -5
I am getting ready to run my second batch in my Loto using AO 80. Talking with jamesp he has been using 2 Tablespoons of AO 80 with 2 Tablespoons of Borax in his 14lb. vibe and when I ran mine the first time I used approximately 1 Tablespoon of AO 80 with 1 Tablespoon of Borax. My slurry seemed to be pretty sticky and I had to keep putting water in multiple times a day to get a creamy consistency. The Loto is 4.5lbs and doing a Tablespoons per pounds of rock calculation off of what Jamesp has been using I came up with the amount for a 4.5lb Loto to be .64 Tablespoons which would convert into exactly 2 teaspoons (actually .66 Tablespoons would be exact). "x" Tablespoons/4.5lb = 2 Tablespoons/14lb... 14x = 9... 9/14 = .64 Tablespoons Does this make sense? Would this be an appropriate amount? If so, Should I just stick with 1 Tablespoon of Borax since thats what I use with my AO 14,000 too? If this seems to be logical than I am gonna try a run this way and see what happens. If I am out in left field I will just run 1 Tablespoon again. Thanks, Jake I didn't say anything last time. I noticed you used a whole teaspoon. .6-.7 teaspoons sounds better. Too much grit takes longer to break down. BUT, that does not matter in terms of how wet your slurry is. The amount of water determines that. But not too much water. Maybe doubling the water. Do you have a pre-determined dose of water ? Like an amount suggested by the Lot-O instructions ? I am a bit careless with the water added. It is a totally wet slurry but not so much water to leave a puddle in the bottom of the hopper. I don't measure the water, I would guess it is 1/10 to 1/20th of a 16 ounce water bottle. A jigger or two(1.5 ounces-3 ounces) for 14 pounds. Rough guess. Try 1/2 to 1 ounce. 1 ounce = 2 tablespoons I add that quantity and never add during the two day run. It starts out plenty wet from the start, stays wet throughout to end. The AO 80 makes a nice slurry because it removes a good bit of rock being so coarse. Like chocolate milk. OK to start on the wet side. I took a load out of the vibe today. I cut the AO 80 run back to 1.5 days. 20 hours in 14,000. Liquid shine. But that was in the Viking. Good luck.
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osuguy0301
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since December 2015
Posts: 203
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Post by osuguy0301 on Feb 6, 2017 18:12:47 GMT -5
It says to just put the rocks in wet and that should be sufficient but its really not. I will give it a go with a half ounce of water and see how it runs. Thanks for the response and I am gonna get it running here shortly and we will see how it goes.
Jake
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 6, 2017 19:24:39 GMT -5
It says to just put the rocks in wet and that should be sufficient but its really not. I will give it a go with a half ounce of water and see how it runs. Thanks for the response and I am gonna get it running here shortly and we will see how it goes. Jake That works with my machine for 24 hours using the AO 80. So I add 2-3 tablespoons right at the start. Extends wetness to 3 days. With no ill effects and no need to add water. Putting rocks in wet works fine for the 14,000 because it does not shave much off the rocks. I have done so many batches I do it with instinct. So the lack of quantitative measurements. If you asked me to measure I would mess up the amounts.
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osuguy0301
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since December 2015
Posts: 203
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Post by osuguy0301 on Feb 9, 2017 9:47:37 GMT -5
I am gonna go out on a limb and say that 2 teaspoons of AO 80 is the correct amount for a 4.5lb Loto.
I ran it for 2 and a half days (60 hrs) with 2 teaspoons of AO 80 and 1 tablespoon of Borax. I wet the rocks to start and then added 1 tablespoon of water. About every 12 hours I added another 1/2 tablespoon of water (usually at 6am and 6pm). When they came out today, a number of them could have passed for already polished. They had a real nice shine to them. I moved them to polish and will check tomorrow after work to see the progress. I will probably let them run 2 days until Saturday though.
Jake
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Post by captbob on Feb 9, 2017 10:59:26 GMT -5
jamesp - I'm too lazy to go find your AO grit thread, so will ask here. Will this AO 80 shape (remove material) same as SiC 80 will or do the rocks already have to be in finished (but lacking a shine) condition before going to the AO 80?
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 9, 2017 11:19:36 GMT -5
I just pulled these out of the 14 pound Vibrasonic Jake. 2 tablespoons AO 80 and 2 tablespoons Borax for 3 days. Started out wetter than normal. So wet that I never had to add water. I put the cap on 3 days ago and opened it this morning. Again, the AO 80 made a wet glossy slurry consistent with chocolate milk, or better, a dead white slurry looking like Milk of Magnesia. I will guess that 1 or 2 tablespoons is less important than having a wetter mix. Not doing a polish, shiny enough. That means that a 200-250 micron particle(80 grit) was reduced to a 1 micron particle(14,000 grit) judging from the quality of the polish. Our tumblers reduced it X200. Phenomenal. Check em out
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 9, 2017 11:25:50 GMT -5
jamesp - I'm too lazy to go find your AO grit thread, so will ask here. Will this AO 80 shape (remove material) same as SiC 80 will or do the rocks already have to be in finished (but lacking a shine) condition before going to the AO 80? From new post above: "That means that a 200-250 micron particle(80 grit) was reduced to a 1 micron particle(14,000 grit) judging from the quality of the polish. Our tumblers reduced it X200. Phenomenal." Aluminum oxide is the one that rounds off and slowly gets smaller and smoother. SiC is the one that cracks into small sharp pieces and cuts more than smoothing. AO for polishing, SiC for cutting
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Post by captbob on Feb 9, 2017 11:35:18 GMT -5
So the tumbles have to be pretty much good to go before using AO 80. (?) You are bypassing 120 & up grits with the AO 80. (?)
ETA: How loud is your Viking? (compared to something)
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 9, 2017 11:44:50 GMT -5
So the tumbles have to be pretty much good to go before using AO 80. (?) You are bypassing 120 & up grits with the AO 80. (?) ETA: How loud is your Viking? (compared to something) Yes, bypassing 120. AO 80 easily shaves off deep scratches from SiC 30 and even the nastier scratches from my diamond grinders. Because AO 80 starts out so coarse it removes bad scratches. The interesting thing is that over 3 days time in a vibe it changes from 80-200-400-800-1500-3000-10,000. Call it a universal abrasive. Viking loudness, hard to hear from the outside of my plastic covered greenhouse at 50 feet away. But me half deaf.
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Post by wigglinrocks on Feb 9, 2017 11:48:26 GMT -5
In a Gy Roc they don't recommend coarser than 120/220 . I think they are referring to old school Sic grit , think the AO would be gentler than Sic on the bowl ? I may have to sacrifice a bowl to find out .
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 9, 2017 12:46:14 GMT -5
In a Gy Roc they don't recommend coarser than 120/220 . I think they are referring to old school Sic grit , think the AO would be gentler than Sic on the bowl ? I may have to sacrifice a bowl to find out . AO 80 a horse of a different color. Not near as aggressive as SiC. And rounds quick. Don't think it is going to be an issue. I think AO 120 or even AO 180 will do just as well. Consider them as an alternative. I think I found a pound of either AO120 or AO 180 for $10 ppd. on Ebay. Could give them a go. I used AO 220 in a rotary for years for step 2. I just assumed I should roll 500-1000-14,000 after the AO 220.(by the book) Should have let it roll to close to polish.
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Post by wigglinrocks on Feb 9, 2017 13:00:46 GMT -5
In a Gy Roc they don't recommend coarser than 120/220 . I think they are referring to old school Sic grit , think the AO would be gentler than Sic on the bowl ? I may have to sacrifice a bowl to find out . AO 80 a horse of a different color. Not near as aggressive as SiC. And rounds quick. Don't think it is going to be an issue. I think AO 120 or even AO 180 will do just as well. Consider them as an alternative. I think I found a pound of either AO120 or AO 180 for $10 ppd. on Ebay. Could give them a go. I used AO 220 in a rotary for years for step 2. I just assumed I should roll 500-1000-14,000 after the AO 220.(by the book) Should have let it roll to close to polish. I do have several bowls for different stages , one coarse bowl that came with one of the vibes was quite abused , probably ran dry or too wet . It has a lot of rub pits in it already so I will try the 80 in that bowl . Should be able to tell quickly if the grit is too harsh . Plus , I like the price of the 80 a lot better . Guess I will find out in the spring . Could be worth investing in a new $30 bowl now and then
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 9, 2017 22:10:16 GMT -5
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Post by wigglinrocks on Feb 9, 2017 22:31:08 GMT -5
Sure does , -6 this morn high today about 15 . Never really considered tumbling in winter , just shut down til spring . This year I will be setting things up so I can work rocks all year . Working on setting saws up , super grinder build , and lining up other needed tools .
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osuguy0301
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since December 2015
Posts: 203
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Post by osuguy0301 on Feb 9, 2017 22:40:54 GMT -5
I really feel like the AO 80 is a game changer. No need for 120/220, 500, 1000, just throw it in for 2 or 3 days, clean out, add AO 14,000 for 2 days and you are done. Saves clean outs, saves grit, saves money.
Jake
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Post by wigglinrocks on Feb 9, 2017 22:58:18 GMT -5
At the risk of finishing off a mostly worn out bowl , I will be trying AO 80 in the GYRoc . When the grass turns from white to green that is .
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 10, 2017 6:22:15 GMT -5
I really feel like the AO 80 is a game changer. No need for 120/220, 500, 1000, just throw it in for 2 or 3 days, clean out, add AO 14,000 for 2 days and you are done. Saves clean outs, saves grit, saves money. Jake In effect you are ball milling your own abrasives. The manufacturer has to ball mill raw AO and then separate it to different size grits for customer needs at a cost. It is a complicated process. The customer may need a 200 or 400 or 12000 finish. And grit steps to these finishes. The manufacturer could never afford to spend 2-3 days on a couple of tablespoons of AO. A tumbler needs a range of grit sizes from 80 to 10,000. The tumbler can do the milling job well. A wet slurry with 24 hour/day mixing in a vibe or rotary misses very little grit. The difference is that our finished product is the balls in a ball mill so to speak. The much larger AO 22 was also done in 2-3 days in the vibe. 10-14 days in a rotary. So the larger AO granules are no match for a tumbler either. Find the best deal on AO 46-60-70-80 and you are ready to go. AO 100-120-180 will probably make the transition from the coarse rotary run too. These finer grits may reduce time in vibe by a day. But may not develop a good protective slurry. And the slightly thicker slurry developed from the coarse AO 22/80 makes a fine protective slurry in the vibe. Allowing a much wetter slurry that does not require adding water if proportioned correctly. Recently I have skipped the AO 14,000 step. The wetter AO 80 mix took the rocks out to a rich polish by day 3.
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Post by wigglinrocks on Feb 10, 2017 10:35:34 GMT -5
OK , you guys got me talked into it . I'll be ordering a couple ponds of 80 today . Worst that can happen is finish off an almost worn out bowl . Have to do the math and play with the recipe a bit . I'm thinking like 1 1/2 AO and the same borax would be a good starting point . 10 pound vibe but I don't think I ever have that much in it . I always have a lot of ceramics in the load and fill by volume and not weight .
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 10, 2017 10:48:56 GMT -5
OK , you guys got me talked into it . I'll be ordering a couple ponds of 80 today . Worst that can happen is finish off an almost worn out bowl . Have to do the math and play with the recipe a bit . I'm thinking like 1 1/2 AO and the same borax would be a good starting point . 10 pound vibe but I don't think I ever have that much in it . I always have a lot of ceramics in the load and fill by volume and not weight . Take a walk on the wild side. My AO 80 puts a mediocre shine on rocks in 24 hours(like 1000-3000 grit). Meaning the grit is probably down to 120 in 4 hours or less. Doubt a few hours at 80 is going to wear the bowl at all. Especially being AO. SiC another animal. About the worst thing to do to a vibe bowl is use ceramic media with silicon carbide (black specks) impregnated in it.
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