jamesp
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Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on Feb 26, 2017 5:03:37 GMT -5
I'd prefer to think of him as a brother from different parents. Us Southern boys are probably all related somehow. You know us Mississippians don't call y'all Southerners .... oh an about the mating habits of the.... JK aDave: Am presently anticipating the answers to the mysteries of this post anxiously... Mixing such subject matter into a tumbling discussion stimulates analogous memory receptors. Hijacks assist memory of threads dating back to B.C.
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,561
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Post by jamesp on Feb 26, 2017 5:07:05 GMT -5
Cleaned out a barrel today - actually did 5, but one in particular went from SiC 60/90 to AO 60. My first strictly coarse AO grit run. Will check in it in a week ... or two. Had I not been wanting to see what the AO will do, probably would have run it in 60/90 for a couple more weeks. Hope the rocks were ready to go to AO. If not, I lose a couple weeks, and go back to 60/90 - don't matter. AO 80 cleaned up SiC 30 every time so far on my end. Should not need 60/90.
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Post by aDave on Feb 26, 2017 11:43:23 GMT -5
Yes, it has been found that coarse grit CAN break down much faster than 7 days. Usually more like 2-3 days. It has been found that adding a thickener like kitty litter, clay or colloidal clay can increase specific gravity of slurry and thicken it to better 'float' the coarse SiC grit. And a thick slurry(like a milk shake) sucks(more hijack ammo) the rocks together increasing grind force(like pulling your foot out of wet clay). Set your 4.5 barrel on an incline with 4 pounds of marbles in water and watch it roll down the incline. Set your 4.5 barrel on an incline with 4 pounds of marbles in a thickened slurry and it probably will not roll down the incline. Thicker slurry increases rubbing friction. Oh yea, back to the course grit breaking down... on right is virgin(this word may spurn yet another hijack conversation) SiC 30, on left is SiC 30 after 12 hours. And a link to sure-fire recovery process and close ups- www.flickr.com/photos/67205364@N06/sets/72157677229423944SiC 30 after 12 hours on left, virgin on right: Coarse grit distribution on rocks(bad photo but you see the grit spread evenly) ETA: Typing at 4AM because I was sleeping yesterday to prepare for a wild party last night. My wife does not like that bunch and conveniently let me sleep thru the party. Very informative and interesting at the same time. I've actually got a bag of Oil Dry here in the garage which is much like kitty litter. I'm assuming it grinds down rather quickly to add to the consistency of the slurry. How much should I start with in a 4lb barrel? Your "illustration" of the marbles in a barrel certainly makes sense. But, if working with thickened slurry that may not allow a barrel to roll down the incline, is that not the same as adding additional weight...at least in terms of working the tumbler motor harder? Does thickened slurry slow the RPM's at all, or have I over-thought this? Lastly, you've clearly pointed out that I should be recharging the coarse grit every few days. Should I be using a full amount of grit or is the amount reduced at all? Thanks and regards. Dave
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Post by 1dave on Feb 26, 2017 11:55:10 GMT -5
Thanks again jamesp. Tumbling Info in a Nutshell!
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Post by captbob on Feb 26, 2017 12:33:58 GMT -5
(If I was not a genius and/or did not know what the hell I was talking about this technical discussion could be very difficult in lieu of external subject matter). These hijackers in particular can not help themselves in this case because they have a strong love for me. In my bondage so to speak. I just threw up in my mouth.
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,561
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Post by jamesp on Feb 26, 2017 12:36:25 GMT -5
Yes, it has been found that coarse grit CAN break down much faster than 7 days. Usually more like 2-3 days. It has been found that adding a thickener like kitty litter, clay or colloidal clay can increase specific gravity of slurry and thicken it to better 'float' the coarse SiC grit. And a thick slurry(like a milk shake) sucks(more hijack ammo) the rocks together increasing grind force(like pulling your foot out of wet clay). Set your 4.5 barrel on an incline with 4 pounds of marbles in water and watch it roll down the incline. Set your 4.5 barrel on an incline with 4 pounds of marbles in a thickened slurry and it probably will not roll down the incline. Thicker slurry increases rubbing friction. Oh yea, back to the course grit breaking down... on right is virgin(this word may spurn yet another hijack conversation) SiC 30, on left is SiC 30 after 12 hours. And a link to sure-fire recovery process and close ups- www.flickr.com/photos/67205364@N06/sets/72157677229423944SiC 30 after 12 hours on left, virgin on right: Coarse grit distribution on rocks(bad photo but you see the grit spread evenly) ETA: Typing at 4AM because I was sleeping yesterday to prepare for a wild party last night. My wife does not like that bunch and conveniently let me sleep thru the party. Very informative and interesting at the same time. I've actually got a bag of Oil Dry here in the garage which is much like kitty litter. I'm assuming it grinds down rather quickly to add to the consistency of the slurry. How much should I start with in a 4lb barrel? Your "illustration" of the marbles in a barrel certainly makes sense. But, if working with thickened slurry that may not allow a barrel to roll down the incline, is that not the same as adding additional weight...at least in terms of working the tumbler motor harder? Does thickened slurry slow the RPM's at all, or have I over-thought this? Lastly, you've clearly pointed out that I should be recharging the coarse grit every few days. Should I be using a full amount of grit or is the amount reduced at all? Thanks and regards. Dave I would dump the barrel per link to 'recovering grit' and see if you can find any after 3 days. Yes, thick slurry increases motor draw but can double/triple grind time. Increase in draw is not so much, should be fine. You can count spins/minute before and after thickener. Fresh red clay can reduce SiC 30 in 1-2 days at average RPM. Thickener effective. One fellow is using SiC 30 in a 3 pound barrel with kitty litter and even with small barrel he said his grit was used up in 2-3 days. You have to experiment with slurry thickener. Not sure about Oil Dry, guessing it is fired clay like most kitty litter. Try 3/4 cup, check after 24 hours that it is not too thick. Can't hurt much. If too thick pour out some and refill to level with clean water. If being consistent and adding grit every 2-3 days I cut doses back to 75%. You may want to do a full clean out after 4th grit addition and add fresh slurry thickener, it has an effective life. I have also been putting a single larger rock in with the normal tumbles and it helps grind speed. Say 8 ounces for 4.5 tumbler. It appears there was another retort posted just before this was posted. Gotta squeeze in between. Might be a full moon ?
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on Feb 26, 2017 12:40:50 GMT -5
I'd prefer to think of him as a brother from different parents. Us Southern boys are probably all related somehow. You know us Mississippians don't call y'all Southerners .... oh an about the mating habits of the.... JK captbob, this one must be laying out in the sun today. Awaiting clarification on this matter.
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Post by captbob on Feb 26, 2017 12:47:43 GMT -5
Cleaned out a barrel today - actually did 5, but one in particular went from SiC 60/90 to AO 60. My first strictly coarse AO grit run. Will check in it in a week ... or two. Had I not been wanting to see what the AO will do, probably would have run it in 60/90 for a couple more weeks. Hope the rocks were ready to go to AO. If not, I lose a couple weeks, and go back to 60/90 - don't matter. AO 80 cleaned up SiC 30 every time so far on my end. Should not need 60/90. Started with 60/90 - trying to polish a specific rock with little to no grinding / change other rocks in barrel just along for the ride. This load is actually a PITA to me. Used to setting everything up to run and then coming back in a few weeks or whenever I remember. This rock requiring frequent monitoring to keep from over tumbling. Way too busy for such babysitting! Same reason I have a UV-10 and a couple extra bowls sitting on a shelf collecting dust. Prefer set 'em and forget 'em
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Post by captbob on Feb 26, 2017 12:49:35 GMT -5
You know us Mississippians don't call y'all Southerners .... oh an about the mating habits of the.... JK captbob , this one must be laying out in the sun today. Awaiting clarification on this matter. She is at yearly rock show this weekend. Is nice and quiet 'round here ain't it!
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,561
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Post by jamesp on Feb 26, 2017 12:53:04 GMT -5
captbob , this one must be laying out in the sun today. Awaiting clarification on this matter. She is at yearly rock show this weekend. Is nice and quiet 'round here ain't it! When the cat is gone....
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Post by captbob on Feb 26, 2017 13:06:43 GMT -5
Lastly, you've clearly pointed out that I should be recharging the coarse grit every few days. Should I be using a full amount of grit or is the amount reduced at all? No no and no! You recharge when it is necessary - the grit has worn down, not based on time. Open a barrel, stick in a finger. Rub finger to thumb. Ask yourself: Is grit worn out? Inspect rocks. Proceed as required. Also, you needn't be doing full clean outs if sticking with the same grit. Why throw out an established slurry? Tumbles are all different. How fast the RPM, what rocks are inside, what grit is being used, the slurry, what the barrel is made of, etc etc etc Nothing is set in stone the same from one tumble to the next. Well, "nothing" is a stretch, but there are many variables. What works for Billyjoe may not work for Marysue. And what works on Rock X may not be the same as for Rock Y.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 26, 2017 13:57:28 GMT -5
I would do a recovery and find out if your grit is breaking down in 1-2-3-4 days to know timing of grit additions aDave. It is a close estimate of grit addition timing. That way you will know when your particular arrangement is completely breaking down the grit. As Bob says, there are many variables. My barrels are consistent at about 2 days. +/- depending on rock size. If you miss a bit it does not matter. The grit from each addition will get used up. If using a slurry additive I would still consider a clean out every 4th grit addition. And a rock check up. Some slurry additives become foamy and loose their effectiveness. If that happens I do a clean out and replace thickener. My clay for instance starts to get a slight foam texture about the 4th grit addition. I add grit every 2 or 3 days. Thin slurry as needed.
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Post by aDave on Feb 26, 2017 14:57:13 GMT -5
Thanks captbob and jamesp. You've given me alot to work with for the time being. I'll be taking baby steps and making changes incrementally over time. That way it will be easier to keep track of what changes worked or didn't work...or were more effective. I'll also have to learn how to keep notes for all of this stuff. Unfortunately, I won't be able to get to the coarse grind until tomorrow. Actually getting ready to leave for a field trip of night rockhounding (UV reactive rocks). Should be interesting. Thanks again and regards. Dave
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Post by captbob on Feb 26, 2017 15:27:09 GMT -5
One thing to consider -at least I consider it- regarding grit breakdown time, is that James is using PVC tumbler barrels. MY thinking is that the grit in his PVC barrels is being pulverized faster when it is being struck by rocks against that hard PVC at a faster rate than when a rock smashes (maybe a better word) it against the softer sides of my rubber lined barrels. I have had grit not break down in a week or more. Sometimes it is used up in a few days. Had to give up on using 30 SiC grit as it just wouldn't breakdown well in my barrels. Probably works MUCH better for James in his PVC barrels. 46/70 is as coarse as I run now - because that is what works, for me.
Not disagreeing with any tumbling information that James has posted. 100% sure he is giving an accurate accounting of what he is experiencing. Just saying results may be different for different for folks tumbling under different circumstances - different tumbler RPMs, different barrels, different rocks, different slurry, different ...
All about experimentation and finding what works for you. That's a big part of the fun!
SO many variables. Guidelines are the best anyone can offer.
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Post by 1dave on Feb 26, 2017 15:46:10 GMT -5
Tumbling perfection steps has yet to be achieved. Finding the best method was stuck for many decades - following the rough grind, fine grind, progressively finer sanding and final polish path of making cabs. Tumbling Experimentation is presently leading the way to cheaper and faster tumbles. Best way to remember is to WRITE IT DOWN. Keep a Log. This one is offered by RockTumbler.comI'm sure jamesp and captbob could improve on the log subjects - more info on each tumble -.
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,561
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Post by jamesp on Feb 26, 2017 17:15:28 GMT -5
One thing to consider -at least I consider it- regarding grit breakdown time, is that James is using PVC tumbler barrels. MY thinking is that the grit in his PVC barrels is being pulverized faster when it is being struck by rocks against that hard PVC at a faster rate than when a rock smashes (maybe a better word) it against the softer sides of my rubber lined barrels. I have had grit not break down in a week or more. Sometimes it is used up in a few days. Had to give up on using 30 SiC grit as it just wouldn't breakdown well in my barrels. Probably works MUCH better for James in his PVC barrels. 46/70 is as coarse as I run now - because that is what works, for me. Not disagreeing with any tumbling information that James has posted. 100% sure he is giving an accurate accounting of what he is experiencing. Just saying results may be different for different for folks tumbling under different circumstances - different tumbler RPMs, different barrels, different rocks, different slurry, different ... All about experimentation and finding what works for you. That's a big part of the fun! SO many variables. Guidelines are the best anyone can offer. Thanks for the endorsement Bob. I want clarify that the sticky slurry is responsible for breaking down the silicon carbide efficiently. Has nothing to do with PVC barrels. I used clay in the rubber Lortone 12 pound barrel and SiC 30 broke down just as fast. Colloidal clay, some kitty litters and clay based 'Old Miser' sold by Covington Engineering does the trick. covington-engineering.com/supplies/tumbling-media/old-miser/old-miser/
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Post by captbob on Feb 26, 2017 17:52:55 GMT -5
Tumbling perfection has yet to be achieved. Finding the best method was stuck for many decades - following the rough grind, fine grind, progressively finer sanding and final polish path of making cabs. Tumbling Experimentation is presently leading the way to cheaper and faster tumbles. Best way to remember is to WRITE IT DOWN. Keep a Log. This one is offered by RockTumbler.comI'm sure jamesp and captbob could improve on the log subjects - more info on each tumble -. Not to be contrary, but I don't agree that tumbling perfection has not been achieved. I've done it and see it here often - the "perfect" tumbled rock. Perfect in that it can't get any better. Problem is, nothing is consistent. So "tumbling perfection" on every rock, 100% of the time is a pipe dream. I couldn't agree more that each step should be written down. Keep a log of what happened. Note what worked and what didn't. I keep it simple. 3x5 cards with the dates and what was done and what is happening to the rocks all logged. Keeps me from wondering what is going on with each barrel. And maybe helps figuring out what I did right or wrong. more hung just now to show as examples Just noticed from logs that some Stone Canyon that I started LAST February just finished this weekend. They were shut down for the summer months (HOT in garage) but that's still one heck of a run time. May be a record! Looks like I did a clean out and stored the rocks away (in a tupperware full of water) for the summer on June 10th and did not resume the tumble until October 1st. Could, no doubt, have done that Stone Canyon batch in half the time if I had cared enough to keep the rocks moving through the steps ASAP. But... I don't care that much!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2017 18:09:29 GMT -5
captbob did I miss a stone cyn batch thread? Link me please? I love that variety.
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Post by captbob on Feb 26, 2017 18:23:43 GMT -5
Have not taken & posted finished pics Scott. Just finished over the past 2 days (two 15 lb barrels of rocks) along with some Rios and a repolish on a bunch of charoite (as filler). Will do pictures this coming week. Another 15 lb barrel of Rios in 1000 grit now, should be finished in March.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2017 18:41:15 GMT -5
Have not taken & posted finished pics Scott. Just finished over the past 2 days (two 15 lb barrels of rocks) along with some Rios and a repolish on a bunch of charoite (as filler). Will do pictures this coming week. Another 15 lb barrel of Rios in 1000 grit now, should be finished in March. Charoite..... (as filler).... Giggling uncontrollably! Lol. I will be patient and look for your pics..... Thank you.
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