zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116 
|
Post by zapins on Feb 24, 2017 19:04:55 GMT -5
I have been working on these plans for the last few months. I have drawn inspiration from many different models and home built saws that I have seen online. Can you guys spot any obvious mistakes in the design or anything I need to add? I am going to put in an order for all the metal to be cut to size for me soon and I'd rather not make a stupid mistake and find out about it afterwards. I am still not sure about the vice. I think I'll probably end up changing that part quite a bit. Also, the total length of my box is currently 50," compared to some commercial saws like highland park they have a 54" long box which presumably gives them longer cutting ability. Is this something that is important enough to warrant me increasing the length I have drawn? Not sure why I can't upload the file to my post since it is only 400 kb large and the limit is 1 mb on attachments so I had to put it on my google drive: drive.google.com/file/d/0B9nQUARu47-OcEpSQUl3aFo5TUk/view?usp=sharing***Edit***This is a link to the completed saw & vice plans for a 24" lapidary slab/rock saw. Feel free to use them to make your own saw though I'd suggest you use thinner gauge steel for the roof than I did. Otherwise it will be too heavy to lift. drive.google.com/file/d/0B9nQUARu47-OZ05kTzFTbklVcVU/view?usp=sharing |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 20:38:56 GMT -5
Not an engineer so no help. Just wanted to say hi! Thee cannot be too many zapins in the world, so I wanted to say hi to my old amigo from blade forums! I hope you are well. Cannot wait to see your saw build. |
|
|
|
Post by Pat on Feb 24, 2017 20:55:54 GMT -5
Can't help with the saw, but you need to use an outside photo hosting site to post here. Flickr is good.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller 
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,608
|
Post by jamesp on Feb 25, 2017 5:10:09 GMT -5
I would buy a used 24 inch saw. You might want to calculate the total weight of your steel. 7 gauge is heavy. I thought about building a 36" saw. Found a 6' X 4'(?) X 30" deep welded ironworker's cabinet with welded on ends and one piece rolled edge container out of 10 gauge. Perfectly sealed. Welded 2 sumps on it. Mounted heavy duty 6 inch castors on it. Perfect box for a 36" to 48" saw. Or a 14"/ 18" and 24" in one box. It could be cut in half to make a 24" and 14"/18" saw. It has been sitting out in the weather for 10 years with the drain caps unscrewed from the sumps. I would probably sell it to you for $700 if you catch freight. Freight ~ $400+ guessing to east US. Or I am in Atlanta if you want to pick it up for $600. It's on this farm somewhere, lol. Have to go find it. I may have a photo and would be glad to take more photos. Poor photo, it is the blue box. Ends are welded on(factory made). The body is one piece and rolled if memory serves. Sumps below with steel drain fittings on each end. They rolled the steel so it has a lip facing inward all the way around the top. It is a vertical cabinet laid over. I filled it to the top w/water and had no leaks. No warpage, seemed to be dead square. Fine piece.  |
|
zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116
|
Post by zapins on May 11, 2017 14:49:46 GMT -5
The fabrication process has been started. The lid is very heavy (200 pounds). How do people lift the lid up on professional saws? It seems extremely heavy and difficult to open. Are the lids counterbalanced? Or do they have some sort of spring or piston to help open the lid?
|
|
quartz
Cave Dweller
breakin' rocks in the hot sun
Member since February 2010
Posts: 3,359
|
Post by quartz on May 11, 2017 23:17:03 GMT -5
The lids are normally made of much thinner material than the tub, no need for bulletproof just to contain the oil. 16ga.steel, .06" thick, weighs 1/3 as much as 7ga.
|
|
|
|
Post by woodman on May 12, 2017 14:04:06 GMT -5
The fabrication process has been started. The lid is very heavy (200 pounds). How do people lift the lid up on professional saws? It seems extremely heavy and difficult to open. Are the lids counterbalanced? Or do they have some sort of spring or piston to help open the lid? The big saws use pulleys and counterweights to open the lid. friend has that on his 36 and 48 in saws. get the weight balanced right for the weight of the lid and it is easy. You just haave to have a spot where you do have to move the saw and have overhead structure to attach pulleys to. |
|
zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116
|
Post by zapins on May 12, 2017 15:43:06 GMT -5
Going to look into pistons, shocks and torsion springs before I do a weight system. I have hooks on the lI'd though incase I need to go that route.
Need to figure out what kind of oil and where to buy it from now. I think I need about 6 to 8 gallons. The tractor supply place near me has cattle laxative light mineral oil. Will that work?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 18:45:17 GMT -5
Going to look into pistons, shocks and torsion springs before I do a weight system. I have hooks on the lI'd though incase I need to go that route. Need to figure out what kind of oil and where to buy it from now. I think I need about 6 to 8 gallons. The tractor supply place near me has cattle laxative light mineral oil. Will that work? Yes. That is what I use. However, unless your blade is VERY near the floor, you may need more than 8 gallons. IE I have 7 gallons in my 18" saw with a much smaller tank. |
|
|
|
Post by woodman on May 12, 2017 19:27:21 GMT -5
|
|
bsky4463
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2013
Posts: 1,696
|
Post by bsky4463 on May 12, 2017 21:04:32 GMT -5
One of the most popular subjects on this board....cutting oil. Many on this forum use mineral oil and it must be a great choice or it wouldnt be so popular. I know many other old schoolers who use diesel because of how inexpensive it is - they also state it is easier to remove from the slab material when prepping for lapidary work but the smell in the shop is often a deal killer. My personal choice after trying both (and others) is Chevron Bright-Cut. My local distributor orders it in for me and gives me a nice break when I buy in volume. I like the fact that is has a very low viscosity, rock particles do not suspend but rather drop out quickly. And it has very good thermodynamic properties keeping the cutting material cool. I am able to recover +75% when I filter through double paper bags and/or letting it settle in a bucket - which takes days not weeks drop out of suspension. I then mix it 50/50 with new oil. I also mix in a bit of Bardahl No-Smoke with each new 5-gallon bucket to cut down on the mist/vapors. Oh yeah, I run this in my 10,16,18 and 24....no complaints. So here is one more opinion for you to filter thru....Cheers. PS. Nice plans. FWIW I am not much for reducing oil volume on this size saw (I would be on a 30 or 36+) as it give more area for particles to drop out and a larger thermal mass to help keep everything cool. |
|
|
|
Post by Rockoonz on May 13, 2017 1:09:29 GMT -5
I agree that more oil volume is a good thing in a big saw.
7ga is massive overkill for a lid, but kind of thin for a tub on a 24. I would build an insert frame from 1/4" and better all the way around the perimeter to support the arbor, rock tray, and carriage rails. Use angle rather than bar stock for the arbor bearing support and slab tray, and sandwich the arbor side with another on the outside of the tub.
|
|
zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116
|
Post by zapins on May 13, 2017 12:05:43 GMT -5
I am still trying to figure out the shocks I need. I have never used them in real life and do not know how they handle. Do you think a pair of these would work to help open the lid? www.ebay.com/itm/2ea-RV-28-200lb-NP-Gas-Spring-Shock-Hatch-Door-Strut-Lift-Support-Prop-Arm-28in-/371935737062?hash=item569918f4e6:g:dzIAAOSwq7JT3lXY&vxp=mtr$hotgunner - yep the blade is 2.25" from the bottom of the floor. It will dip into the oil 3/4" deep. I will have 2.5" deep of oil on the bottom. woodman - thanks for that link. I think I will end up buying from them. Their price is very good. bsky4463 - thanks, I'll upload better plans soon. I have a 3d model file of the saw box and then other diagrams for the shaft size and the other parts. I'll upload a full build thread from start to finish with lots of photos and schematics when I finish making the vice & carriage. I am still figuring out how I want those to work and it seems a little bit tricky since it all has to line up very well. Still don't know if I want to cast the frame out of aluminum or iron or if I want to just weld it up out of steel. Probably steel since it is easier to source and work with. Rockoonz - I went with 7 gauge for the body and 3/8" thick inner frame to give the saw box support. There are also triangles on the corners and the legs give the saw body strength. These things have strengthened the body up considerably. I don't think it will warp over time. I built in an oil pan reducer in the bottom which you can't see in the photo. I calculated that there will be about 7 or 8 gallons of oil in the bottom.  |
|
|
|
Post by Rockoonz on May 13, 2017 13:28:54 GMT -5
Looks real nice.
Do I see threaded holes for fine adjustment on the pillow blocks for blade alignment? If you did you'll like it.
It will warp/sag/settle over time. Ever leveled an old lathe bed that was made from steel over an inch thick? It's impossible to entirely eliminate it, you can only be aware of it and try to control it. Difference here being you are cutting something a lot harder than steel with a thin, expensive piece of diamond tipped steel. If you have the parts and tools try putting the arbor shaft in place with a blade bolted on, then place a dial gauge anywhere on the wall or floor of the tub with the indicator against the blade about an inch in from the end at the point nearest the back wall. Use a jack to lift the front right corner and watch how far the dial moves (it will). If less than about .005" at the edge of the blade and stops no matter how high you lift you're good, unless you plan to use equipment leveling feet and never move it once it's in place. For reference, a Lortone 18" will move the dial gauge and it keeps moving no matter how high you lift. My Nelson 12" with a ~9ga tub that is doubled with a continuous weld for the top 3 inches all the way around plus 2 pcs 1.5x1.5x.25 angle supporting the arbor will move a gauge placed in the vice about .002" when I lift, this is a 12" saw. With all that said, leveling it and placing it somewhere where you can clean and maintain it without moving it will save you a ton load of cash for blades. and yes, I'm a bit anal when it comes to tools, but I seldom have to do anything more than once.
I really like your vice design too, much better than the PITA HP, FranTom type. If you are able to do long line bores consider round rails with bronze bushings or linear bearings, solid rounds are much straighter and tend to stay straight, especially drill rod.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 13, 2017 19:44:10 GMT -5
One of the most popular subjects on this board....cutting oil. Many on this forum use mineral oil and it must be a great choice or it wouldnt be so popular. I know many other old schoolers who use diesel because of how inexpensive it is - they also state it is easier to remove from the slab material when prepping for lapidary work but the smell in the shop is often a deal killer. My personal choice after trying both (and others) is Chevron Bright-Cut. My local distributor orders it in for me and gives me a nice break when I buy in volume. I like the fact that is has a very low viscosity, rock particles do not suspend but rather drop out quickly. And it has very good thermodynamic properties keeping the cutting material cool. I am able to recover +75% when I filter through double paper bags and/or letting it settle in a bucket - which takes days not weeks drop out of suspension. I then mix it 50/50 with new oil. I also mix in a bit of Bardahl No-Smoke with each new 5-gallon bucket to cut down on the mist/vapors. Oh yeah, I run this in my 10,16,18 and 24....no complaints. So here is one more opinion for you to filter thru....Cheers. PS. Nice plans. FWIW I am not much for reducing oil volume on this size saw (I would be on a 30 or 36+) as it give more area for particles to drop out and a larger thermal mass to help keep everything cool. Odor? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 13, 2017 20:00:45 GMT -5
This is bad ass. Somewhere I have pics of a 48" build.
He designed it with a 35G sump. Said next build will hold a full drum. 55G would make clean outs every 2 weeks instead of every Friday. 5 cuts per day 4 days a week. Clean out on Friday.
Anybody else clean out every 20 cuts? Lol
|
|
zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116
|
Post by zapins on May 13, 2017 21:02:24 GMT -5
When I'm done I plan on building a centrifugal oil cleaner so that I can run it at the same time as the saw and constantly have clean oil in the saw box.
Rockoonz - what about the vice design do you like? I think I might simplify it a bit more and have less welding to do. Maybe also make it have a detachable top plate where the holes go. What do you think about 1/2" thick plate for the long part of the vice with the holes drilled in it? I think it should work out nicely.
I need to figure out the wheels. I think I'm going to go with 1.5"x1.5"x0.25" square rods for the rails and then use V groove iron/steel wheels to sit on the rail. Probably with some kind of guide to keep the wheel pulling off the top. Possibly add a second V groove under the rail instead. Not sure.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rockoonz on May 13, 2017 22:39:33 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Rockoonz on May 13, 2017 22:58:17 GMT -5
Here's IMO the absolute best engineered big saw out there, from Barranca. Check the carriage/vice pic at the bottom. FAT shafting grade hard chromed round solid rod with linear bearings. It don't get better than this, my wife had to drag me away kicking and screaming when I had a chance to fondle one in Madras. barrancadiamond.com/lap/saw_hp18_24.html |
|
zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116
|
Post by zapins on May 15, 2017 23:18:53 GMT -5
Rockoonz - I have seen a few saws with that kind of design where the rails come through a lower section and are kept on track simply by metal on metal as the rail goes through the hole. I was worried that over time the frame would wear down because of all the rock grit and constant metal on metal rubbing. Do they hold up well over time? If so I might just go with that design instead of a wheel or V groove wheel design. Originally I actually bought some nylon that I was going to cut holes through and slot into the rails to act as a bearing material. That way when the nylon ring around the rail wore out I could just replace it and keep cutting without damage to the alignment or the rails. Should I go with this idea?  Rockoonz & Rockoonz - Sounds like square rails are out. So for the rails, should I go with stainless steel 1" thick rods, or cold rolled 1" thick rods? I can potentially buy larger diameter rods as well if necessary to prevent bowing of the rails and misalignment issues? Do the rails need to be lathed so they are perfectly straight, or will they work if they are simply bought straight as 1" diameter rods? Should I just use 1/2" thick plate for the entire vice body then? That should make it pretty tank like and unlikely to break? There doesn't appear to be a quick release and reset (in the above picture). I was thinking of using holes in the top plate to socket a piece of metal that holds the jaws shut and put a screw adjuster on the top of it just like this vice (below). Is this a good idea? 
|
|
