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Post by stephan on Aug 10, 2021 14:18:38 GMT -5
I took a beginners silver class several years ago at William Holland. I'm slowly setting up a bonus room for jewelry making. Its about 90% unpacked and 10% organized. I wanted to have an exhaust option for the torch. I cobbled together a few ideas I've seen online and think I have a decent system set up. It vents into the wall in the bonus room that goes into an unused attic space. I know that's not as ideal as directly venting outside. Hopefully all of that insulation will ask as additional filters. So, yes, I want to set this one in silver. Ideally, even a handmade chain with some accent stone beads. To date everything I've made since the class I've gifted. This one will be for me! Depending on what's in your flux, if you can't achieve adequate ventilation, you may want to consider a respirator for the fumes, if you do it more than just occasionally. Some metal fumes are relatively harmless, others give interesting side effects, where it's not clear, whether or not they are dangerous (silver gives you blue-gray eyes -- so you'd look like a Spice-addict from Dune, I guess?), and others can be dangerous. I'm more familiar with welding, where beryllium and cadmium can be serious hazards. I'm not sure whether those are in a lot of fluxes, but they are listed here: www.sentryair.com/blog/industry-applications/electronics-technology/the-hazards-of-solder-fumes/If you decide that a respirator is for you, I can help. Right off the bat, an N-95 would not provide appreciable protection from fumes. |
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Post by stephan on Aug 10, 2021 14:19:55 GMT -5
I agree. Stone Canyon it is! That is a beautiful cab BTW, I'm a huge fan of anything brecciated! Thank you, young lady. Yours is pretty darn striking as well. It'll be cool to see what you do with it. |
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Post by fantastic5 on Aug 10, 2021 15:40:20 GMT -5
Depending on what's in your flux, if you can't achieve adequate ventilation, you may want to consider a respirator for the fumes, if you do it more than just occasionally. Some metal fumes are relatively harmless, others give interesting side effects, where it's not clear, whether or not they are dangerous (silver gives you blue-gray eyes -- so you'd look like a Spice-addict from Dune, I guess?), and others can be dangerous. I'm more familiar with welding, where beryllium and cadmium can be serious hazards. I'm not sure whether those are in a lot of fluxes, but they are listed here: www.sentryair.com/blog/industry-applications/electronics-technology/the-hazards-of-solder-fumes/If you decide that a respirator is for you, I can help. Right off the bat, an N-95 would not provide appreciable protection from fumes. Thank you for the link. At work I'm the OSHA girl, but at home I've not taken the same precautions. I'm trying to be more careful about whats in the chemicals I use and what safety mechanisms I have in place. I think the ventilation is adequate. It draws the flame nicely. This is what I use to draw the air. VIVOSUN 4 Inch 190 CFM Inline Duct Ventilation Fan with Variable Speed Controller
I would like your recommendation for a good respirator for polishing. Ann |
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Post by stephan on Aug 10, 2021 17:39:35 GMT -5
For polishing most rocks, really no respirator is needed, if you are using water. It keeps the fine particles from staying airborne and penetrating into lungs. Even some of the more toxic lead/arsenic/mercury ones, it shouldn't be too much of a concern with water and adequate ventilation, but some people feel safer with one. I'd wear gloves, though.
As a good general purpose respirator, I like 3M respirators. They are relatively comfortable, and provide a good seal, if you get the correct size and fit. A half-face mask should be more than sufficient. Both the 6200 and 6500 series would work well. I would use the P100/OV/AG cartidges, as they catch a broad spectrum of contaminants. They will filter 99.7% of particulates, as well as organic vapors and acid gas. This means you are covered if you are dry-polishing obsidian or jade, removing asbestos, using solvents (such as strippers or oil-based paints). I can't imagine a home scenario for running into significant acid gas, but it just usually comes with OV cartridges.
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Post by holajonathan on Aug 11, 2021 4:16:17 GMT -5
For polishing most rocks, really no respirator is needed, if you are using water. It keeps the fine particles from staying airborne and penetrating into lungs. Even some of the more toxic lead/arsenic/mercury ones, it shouldn't be too much of a concern with water and adequate ventilation, but some people feel safer with one. I'd wear gloves, though. As a good general purpose respirator, I like 3M respirators. They are relatively comfortable, and provide a good seal, if you get the correct size and fit. A half-face mask should be more than sufficient. Both the 6200 and 6500 series would work well. I would use the P100/OV/AG cartidges, as they catch a broad spectrum of contaminants. They will filter 99.7% of particulates, as well as organic vapors and acid gas. This means you are covered if you are dry-polishing obsidian or jade, removing asbestos, using solvents (such as strippers or oil-based paints). I can't imagine a home scenario for running into significant acid gas, but it just usually comes with OV cartridges. 99.7% of really, super, incredibly small particles, and closer to 100% of anything larger than that. The 3M p100 cartridges (without the activated carbon / organic vapors part) are what I use when grinding rocks dry, along with a fan at my back (done outside, of course). I use the 6500 half mask and it is great. I have a pretty fancy air quality monitor in my barn where I run my Genie and a 6" trim saw (the only lapidary equipment, other than tumblers, that I use indoors). If I run the Genie for a little while -- even using both geysers on the same wheel, which I usually do -- the level of PM2.5 (very fine, dangerous dust particles) in the air does actually increase a little, and the level of PM10 (a little less small, and less dangerous) raises somewhat more. They are still well below the safe range for breathing without a mask, but they do consistently raise the levels of PM2.5. My barn has 14 foot tall ceilings and is 3500 square feet, so there's a lot of air. I always have ceiling fans on low as well, so there is some air circulation and mixing. In a small room without ventilation I bet the level of PM2.5 would be much higher. Probably still below the danger threshold, but I'm not certain. The trim saw, which is oil cooled, raises the level of PM2.5 even faster than the Genie, but since I don't use the trim saw for an extended period of time, it ultimately has little effect on air quality. Next post will show a screen shot from the air quality monitor app on my phone. |
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Post by holajonathan on Aug 11, 2021 4:18:42 GMT -5
 Can you guess what time I started using the Genie? Around 4:30 p.m. yesterday. Again, this is in a large pole barn with 14 foot ceilings, a ceiling fan on low, and the air quality monitor located about 20 feet from the Genie. |
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Post by stephan on Aug 11, 2021 10:14:47 GMT -5
Can you guess what time I started using the Genie? Around 4:30 p.m. yesterday. Again, this is in a large pole barn with 14 foot ceilings, a ceiling fan on low, and the air quality monitor located about 20 feet from the Genie. Wow! That IS a sensitive meter! I wish our air quality was that good.  I'm not surprised that the saw generates more measurable particles, since oil droplets would be measured. That's where the "P" in P-100 comes in ("oil proof") ACGIH (the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists -- a non-profit advisory organization) recommends an exposure level of ≤25micrograms/m 3 (time-weighted average) for pm2.5 silica dust any 8 hour period. ACGIH is typically more careful than the regulatory agencies, so OSHA and most European regulatory agencies allow 100. Shorter exposures allow for higher levels. |
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Post by holajonathan on Aug 11, 2021 13:07:37 GMT -5
Can you guess what time I started using the Genie? Around 4:30 p.m. yesterday. Again, this is in a large pole barn with 14 foot ceilings, a ceiling fan on low, and the air quality monitor located about 20 feet from the Genie. Wow! That IS a sensitive meter! I wish our air quality was that good. I'm not surprised that the saw generates more measurable particles, since oil droplets would be measured. That's where the "P" in P-100 comes in ("oil proof") ACGIH (the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists -- a non-profit advisory organization) recommends an exposure level of ≤25micrograms/m 3 (time-weighted average) for pm2.5 silica dust any 8 hour period. ACGIH is typically more careful than the regulatory agencies, so OSHA and most European regulatory agencies allow 100. Shorter exposures allow for higher levels. I wonder if all pm2.5 is as bad for you as silica pm2.5? I bought the meters for my house and barn because I have wood stoves in both, and the EPA, CDC, and others have lots of info and data showing that many homes with wood stoves have awful indoor air quality. Thankfully, modern air tight stoves are not so bad if burned properly and door opening is kept to a minimum. Nevertheless, the stoves clearly do raise levels of pm2.5, VOCs, and NOx no matter how you operate them. |
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Post by holajonathan on Aug 11, 2021 13:12:06 GMT -5
Can you guess what time I started using the Genie? Around 4:30 p.m. yesterday. Again, this is in a large pole barn with 14 foot ceilings, a ceiling fan on low, and the air quality monitor located about 20 feet from the Genie. Wow! That IS a sensitive meter! I wish our air quality was that good. I'm not surprised that the saw generates more measurable particles, since oil droplets would be measured. That's where the "P" in P-100 comes in ("oil proof") ACGIH (the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists -- a non-profit advisory organization) recommends an exposure level of ≤25micrograms/m 3 (time-weighted average) for pm2.5 silica dust any 8 hour period. ACGIH is typically more careful than the regulatory agencies, so OSHA and most European regulatory agencies allow 100. Shorter exposures allow for higher levels. Forgot to say, you're right about the oil mist from the trim saw being the source of pm2.5. I tried running my slab saw in the barn and pm2.5 went through the roof, up to something like 200 mcg/m3. To the extent these are micro droplets of pure mineral oil I suppose they would not be too bad for lungs. But I'm sure there is silica in the oil mist. |
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Post by stephan on Aug 11, 2021 13:26:59 GMT -5
Wow! That IS a sensitive meter! I wish our air quality was that good. I'm not surprised that the saw generates more measurable particles, since oil droplets would be measured. That's where the "P" in P-100 comes in ("oil proof") ACGIH (the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists -- a non-profit advisory organization) recommends an exposure level of ≤25micrograms/m 3 (time-weighted average) for pm2.5 silica dust any 8 hour period. ACGIH is typically more careful than the regulatory agencies, so OSHA and most European regulatory agencies allow 100. Shorter exposures allow for higher levels. Forgot to say, you're right about the oil mist from the trim saw being the source of pm2.5. I tried running my slab saw in the barn and pm2.5 went through the roof, up to something like 200 mcg/m3. To the extent these are micro droplets of pure mineral oil I suppose they would not be too bad for lungs. But I'm sure there is silica in the oil mist. You're right. The PEL for airborne cutting oil is quite a bit higher... milligrams, not micrograms per cubic meter. The silica dust, I'm nut sure about, since oil would encapsulate it, and be less likely to reach the lungs, and be more likely to be swallowed. A bigger concern would be things that you're cutting that have toxicity, since oil can sometimes improve the absorption of ingested materials. |
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Post by holajonathan on Aug 11, 2021 14:03:12 GMT -5
Forgot to say, you're right about the oil mist from the trim saw being the source of pm2.5. I tried running my slab saw in the barn and pm2.5 went through the roof, up to something like 200 mcg/m3. To the extent these are micro droplets of pure mineral oil I suppose they would not be too bad for lungs. But I'm sure there is silica in the oil mist. You're right. The PEL for airborne cutting oil is quite a bit higher... milligrams, not micrograms per cubic meter. The silica dust, I'm nut sure about, since oil would encapsulate it, and be less likely to reach the lungs, and be more likely to be swallowed. A bigger concern would be things that you're cutting that have toxicity, since oil can sometimes improve the absorption of ingested materials. Good info re oil mist and oil encapsulated silica. So maybe I shouldn't be so worried about oil mist from running a slab saw indoors? I use so-called food grade mineral oil in the saws, for what it's worth. Is there a good list out there of potentially toxic lapidary rocks? I know pyrite often contains arsenic. Others, no doubt, contain lead. |
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Post by stephan on Aug 11, 2021 14:08:21 GMT -5
Wow! That IS a sensitive meter! I wish our air quality was that good. I'm not surprised that the saw generates more measurable particles, since oil droplets would be measured. That's where the "P" in P-100 comes in ("oil proof") ACGIH (the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists -- a non-profit advisory organization) recommends an exposure level of ≤25micrograms/m 3 (time-weighted average) for pm2.5 silica dust any 8 hour period. ACGIH is typically more careful than the regulatory agencies, so OSHA and most European regulatory agencies allow 100. Shorter exposures allow for higher levels. I wonder if all pm2.5 is as bad for you as silica pm2.5? I bought the meters for my house and barn because I have wood stoves in both, and the EPA, CDC, and others have lots of info and data showing that many homes with wood stoves have awful indoor air quality. Thankfully, modern air tight stoves are not so bad if burned properly and door opening is kept to a minimum. Nevertheless, the stoves clearly do raise levels of pm2.5, VOCs, and NOx no matter how you operate them. Most is, unless it's smooth. The reason the 2.5 size is concerning, is that it penetrates deeply, but when it comes to causing damage, it is the jagged shape that actually damages and scars the lung tissue. This is why playground sand (crushed quartz) is more problematic that beach sand, even if the size is the same. Soot particles are pretty jagged. As products of combustion, they can also have problematic chemistry -- toxins, free radicals, etc. -- attached to them. VOCs can be toxic. Moderate NOx from a properly-operated, relatively stove is usually not directly problematic for healthy people, but it is a precursor for smog, and can cause problems in people with compromised lungs. At a certain point, it can also have direct health effects. |
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Post by parfive on Aug 11, 2021 14:23:07 GMT -5
stephan There ya go . . . spoutin’ all that political shit again. 
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Post by rockjunquie on Aug 11, 2021 15:33:11 GMT -5
stephan There ya go . . . spoutin’ all that political shit again. 
Jeez, isn't that called stirring the pot?  Or, is it just trolling? |
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Post by holajonathan on Aug 11, 2021 18:23:05 GMT -5
I wonder if all pm2.5 is as bad for you as silica pm2.5? I bought the meters for my house and barn because I have wood stoves in both, and the EPA, CDC, and others have lots of info and data showing that many homes with wood stoves have awful indoor air quality. Thankfully, modern air tight stoves are not so bad if burned properly and door opening is kept to a minimum. Nevertheless, the stoves clearly do raise levels of pm2.5, VOCs, and NOx no matter how you operate them. Most is, unless it's smooth. The reason the 2.5 size is concerning, is that it penetrates deeply, but when it comes to causing damage, it is the jagged shape that actually damages and scars the lung tissue. This is why playground sand (crushed quartz) is more problematic that beach sand, even if the size is the same. Soot particles are pretty jagged. As products of combustion, they can also have problematic chemistry -- toxins, free radicals, etc. -- attached to them. VOCs can be toxic. Moderate NOx from a properly-operated, relatively stove is usually not directly problematic for healthy people, but it is a precursor for smog, and can cause problems in people with compromised lungs. At a certain point, it can also have direct health effects. So are you a doctor? Scientist? Air quality connoisseur? Serious question. Just curious. I appreciate the info. I get alerts on my cell phone if PM2.5 or VOCS reach a danger level in my barn or house. This only happens if I do something stupid and let a large amount of smoke out of the wood stove. Has only happened a couple times. I have rather large HEPA filters with 20 lb activated carbon prefilters (for the VOCs) that I can run if necessary. They work great but make tons of noise and scare the cats. It always comes back to the cats, doesn't it? What is just as concerning as the wood stoves is the impact of my natural gas oven / stove on indoor air quality. Natural gas burns very cleanly compared to other fossil fuels, but not so cleanly that you want to breathe the combustion byproduct. VOCS, NOx, lots of CO2 (not harmful per se, but undesirable) and a detectable level of CO if my AQM is placed near the stove while in use. |
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Post by stephan on Aug 11, 2021 20:19:33 GMT -5
Most is, unless it's smooth. The reason the 2.5 size is concerning, is that it penetrates deeply, but when it comes to causing damage, it is the jagged shape that actually damages and scars the lung tissue. This is why playground sand (crushed quartz) is more problematic that beach sand, even if the size is the same. Soot particles are pretty jagged. As products of combustion, they can also have problematic chemistry -- toxins, free radicals, etc. -- attached to them. VOCs can be toxic. Moderate NOx from a properly-operated, relatively stove is usually not directly problematic for healthy people, but it is a precursor for smog, and can cause problems in people with compromised lungs. At a certain point, it can also have direct health effects. So are you a doctor? Scientist? Air quality connoisseur? Serious question. Just curious. I appreciate the info. I get alerts on my cell phone if PM2.5 or VOCS reach a danger level in my barn or house. This only happens if I do something stupid and let a large amount of smoke out of the wood stove. Has only happened a couple times. I have rather large HEPA filters with 20 lb activated carbon prefilters (for the VOCs) that I can run if necessary. They work great but make tons of noise and scare the cats. It always comes back to the cats, doesn't it? What is just as concerning as the wood stoves is the impact of my natural gas oven / stove on indoor air quality. Natural gas burns very cleanly compared to other fossil fuels, but not so cleanly that you want to breathe the combustion byproduct. VOCS, NOx, lots of CO2 (not harmful per se, but undesirable) and a detectable level of CO if my AQM is placed near the stove while in use. LOL! Fair warning: there isn't a super-short answer to that question. I'm not a doctor. I studied Biochemistry and Biophysics. As an undergrad I worked in a hospital, both in the ER and also a clinical lab. After graduation, I became a research scientist, and spent about 25 years at the bench. I spent time in hospital labs, University research labs and the private sector. Most of my work was in respiratory diseases, virology and immunology, working on vaccine development and pilot-scale production. One year, for a change, I worked in a wine cellar, doing some enology and a lot of grunt work for wine production. Currently, I am a Health & Safety Engineer, focusing on Industrial Hygiene (including the respiratory protection program), hazardous waste management and pandemic response. I'm trained in both Federal and California regs, so believe me, when I say that if Cal/EPA and Cal/OSHA don't consider something to be hazardous, it's likely quite safe. Maybe not always put-it-in-your-coffee-safe, but pretty darn safe. Remember that coffee was nearly listed as a carcinogen. For all your heating options, when anything is combusted, you'll have some harmful by-products. It sounds like you have good engineering controls (ventilation) and administrative controls (monitoring) set up -- better than some companies. Those are far more effective than PPE like respirators: a last line of defense, in case everything else fails. BTW, CO would be your biggest hazard without adequate ventilation. And, yes, we must definitely not stress out the cats. |
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Aug 11, 2021 21:19:32 GMT -5
fantastic5 Ann, your thread got a bit hijacked there, so I wanted to ask when you said polishing I took it as jewelry polishing, not rock polishing. Am I correct? If so, I would think an N-95 would be fine. Do you have a jeweler's bench polisher or do you use a Foredom with small buffs?
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Post by stephan on Aug 11, 2021 22:05:41 GMT -5
How do you figure it was “hijacked”? I answered a question about solder fumes, which sparked inquiries about other potential contaminants in the workspace. I answered those as well. The question about my qualifications to give those was perfectly legitimate as well. I answered as completely as I could, so people can judge for themselves with how big a grain of salt to take those answers. This includes my answer to Ann’s initial question about soldering fumes.
Cats were mentioned only in passing.
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Aug 12, 2021 9:51:36 GMT -5
How do you figure it was “hijacked”? I answered a question about solder fumes, which sparked inquiries about other potential contaminants in the workspace. I answered those as well. The question about my qualifications to give those was perfectly legitimate as well. I answered as completely as I could, so people can judge for themselves with how big a grain of salt to take those answers. This includes my answer to Ann’s initial question about soldering fumes. Cats were mentioned only in passing. Geez, sometimes you're really touchy, stephan. You guys just went off on a bit of tangent and got pretty technical, that's all. I didn't say anything about cats. I really don't care, just wanted to bring Ann's thread back to her topic because I read her post differently and wanted to ask what type of polishing she meant. Sheesh. |
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Post by stephan on Aug 12, 2021 10:12:13 GMT -5
How do you figure it was “hijacked”? I answered a question about solder fumes, which sparked inquiries about other potential contaminants in the workspace. I answered those as well. The question about my qualifications to give those was perfectly legitimate as well. I answered as completely as I could, so people can judge for themselves with how big a grain of salt to take those answers. This includes my answer to Ann’s initial question about soldering fumes. Cats were mentioned only in passing. Geez, sometimes you're really touchy, stephan . You guys just went off on a bit of tangent and got pretty technical, that's all. I didn't say anything about cats. I really don't care, just wanted to bring Ann's thread back to her topic because I read her post differently and wanted to ask what type of polishing she meant. Sheesh. Nope, not touchy. Just genuinely baffled. Technical is not off-topic. It just give more info than a soundbite. I like to give people the full info (some people actually like a better explanation than "because I said so"), but that seems to bother you, for some reason. Since the posts were, in fact, relevant, the comment about cats was just inserted as comic relief. |
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Or, is it just trolling?
... to the New Guys from The ChatBox V.2 Crew