jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Jan 4, 2022 10:55:32 GMT -5
That fancy Function Generator would act as the main Control Panel in the setup I am describing above.
You could even use this rig with Piezo Elements to make Ultrasonic Cleaners ect. because of the wide frequency range of 0.2 Hz ~ 2 MHz . But I never made a Potato Gun , looked at the plans and saw the video though . . .
Do your thing Wooferhound. I noticed used units are a dime a dozen on EBAY. I may have some polyurethane hoppers you may be interested in. They were small feed troughs for farm animals were designed to mount flush to a wall. The are offset cylinder shaped. Hope I still have them in the boneyard. Or I can fabricate a hopper out of HDPE or PVC, let me know. I'll try to get some photos.
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Jan 7, 2022 17:41:09 GMT -5
>>> Can I ask some questions Tim ? >> So is the back of a speaker basically a solenoid utilizing a permanent magnet for the external electrical field that moves the speaker cone back and forth ? A regular Loudspeaker is a fixed magnet and a coil of wire on a spring mechanism (spider) connected to the cone to vibrate the air.
>> Are these Butt Kickers that convert flat surfaces to speakers simply the same as a vibration generator in the back of a speaker without having a speaker cone attached to it ?
Butt Kickers are made backwards from normal speakers, the magnet is out moving on a spring mechanism to use the weight to create the vibration , then the Coil is mounted to the surface that you want to vibrate like a PVC Tumbler barrel.
>> You mentioned a tone maker/function generator, does it put out a varying current or voltage ?(I have hooked up speakers but never knew what type of power drives them.) The tone generator/Function Generator creates the oscillation at a low voltage too small to drive a speaker/tumbler, but any audio amplifier over 50 watts output should be enough to make it work. I'm already dragging out parts to make something quick. I will make a new post about it very soon.
>> IMO sinusoidal 80hz to 120hz would be a good frequency for finish tumbling, but with a low amplitude of about 1/64" to 1/16" instead of moving a speaker cone 1/8" to 3/8". Thoughts ? >> I am aware that moving a big bass speaker cone back and forth a 1/4" takes some serious wattage, wouldn't moving the cone say a smaller 1/32" take way less wattage ? >> And of course would a 50 watt sound generator at say 150hz with short amplitude have enough power to vibrate rocks thru a thin plastic hopper shell ? ?
I think your suggestion of 80 to 120 HZ would work well, but I bet you could easily dial in the best frequency to create the action you wanted in the hopper just by looking at it in realtime. I believe that even lower frequencies would work really well. A regular tumbler takes less than 50 watts to make it work. In my thinking, it seems you would not need more than 50 watts to make a speaker work just as good. You will want to remove the speaker cone to keep it from being so loud and this will reduce the air pressure loading on it so you will get more power to the rocks than you think.
>> Can they handle potential moisture ? I'm sure I can keep the nastiness out of the sensitive parts.
>> I found a couple of used units. Can I send one to you to connect to your tone generator ? To tinker with ? Might be easier than working with the 15" woofer. I would be happy to play with your parts. I am surprised that this idea has not occurred to me before, I work with speakers everyday, even rebuilding and repairing. Also wonder how much Value I can Add to a batch of quartz polished with Pink Floyd and provided with a video of the polishing process ?
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Jan 7, 2022 20:57:59 GMT -5
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Jan 7, 2022 22:14:54 GMT -5
I received the 25 watt sound generators today Robin. They are heavy duty, must weigh 3 pounds. Must generate some serious vibes. Looking good.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Jan 8, 2022 8:53:22 GMT -5
3 pounds each Wooferhound and they are old heavy duty units and only 25 watts. Over 2 inches thick. You had mentioned the weight of the magnet has to do with the vibration output strength. These things got to be serious. If you want to try them out. PM address if.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Jan 8, 2022 8:56:22 GMT -5
increasing frequency sound generator test
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Jan 8, 2022 9:01:12 GMT -5
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Jan 8, 2022 9:27:32 GMT -5
Cutie crazy engineer chick attaches a vibration plate to a sound generator and powers it with a variable tone(vibration) amp.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Jan 8, 2022 9:36:36 GMT -5
Wow 11 pounds ! Up to 1500 watts. grrrr a beast. That one might be powerful enough to run a giant vibratory tumbler. The wattage requirements can vary so much on these devices. Curious if a say 6 pound capacity tumbler would operate with only a 25 watt generator. Sure would be easy on the power bill.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Jan 8, 2022 10:05:26 GMT -5
Lol, check out this oldie. It is simple enough for a dumb mechanical guy. I picked up a vintage EICO Model 379 on EBAY for cheap Wooferhound. Hoping I will not need an amp...no problem if so. Concern - guessing the sound generators are continuous duty, hopefully the wave generators will handle continuous duty. If not an amp should be continuous duty.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Jan 8, 2022 10:28:14 GMT -5
To get an idea of the sound made by a noisy resonant frequency of 120hz(one ring) which is about twice as fast as a rock vibe vibration happens when video is at 60 seconds. 80Hz to 110hz should be fairly quiet and suitable for a fast vibratory rock tumbler. 120hz = 1 ring 360hz = 2 rings (probably too fast for a tumbler and loud)) 890hz = 3 rings " " 1710hz = 4 rings " "
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Jan 8, 2022 12:31:18 GMT -5
Sealing the generators with silicone caulk to prevent slurry intrusion. Magnets are 3.25" in diameter.
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Post by knave on Jan 8, 2022 12:41:19 GMT -5
I need a cordless butt kicker. To help me get moving at times But mostly for handing out butt kickings They seem to be in short supply.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Jan 9, 2022 9:16:00 GMT -5
I need a cordless butt kicker. To help me get moving at times But mostly for handing out butt kickings They seem to be in short supply. Maybe one mounted under a spike board seat pad in your work truck seat would stimulate a wake up Evan ? Baseball bats work well for giving out butt kickings !
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Jan 9, 2022 11:02:18 GMT -5
>>> Can I ask some questions Tim ? >> So is the back of a speaker basically a solenoid utilizing a permanent magnet for the external electrical field that moves the speaker cone back and forth ? A regular Loudspeaker is a fixed magnet and a coil of wire on a spring mechanism (spider) connected to the cone to vibrate the air. >> Are these Butt Kickers that convert flat surfaces to speakers simply the same as a vibration generator in the back of a speaker without having a speaker cone attached to it ?
Butt Kickers are made backwards from normal speakers, the magnet is out moving on a spring mechanism to use the weight to create the vibration , then the Coil is mounted to the surface that you want to vibrate like a PVC Tumbler barrel.
>> You mentioned a tone maker/function generator, does it put out a varying current or voltage ?(I have hooked up speakers but never knew what type of power drives them.) The tone generator/Function Generator creates the oscillation at a low voltage too small to drive a speaker/tumbler, but any audio amplifier over 50 watts output should be enough to make it work. I'm already dragging out parts to make something quick. I will make a new post about it very soon.
>> IMO sinusoidal 80hz to 120hz would be a good frequency for finish tumbling, but with a low amplitude of about 1/64" to 1/16" instead of moving a speaker cone 1/8" to 3/8". Thoughts ? >> I am aware that moving a big bass speaker cone back and forth a 1/4" takes some serious wattage, wouldn't moving the cone say a smaller 1/32" take way less wattage ? >> And of course would a 50 watt sound generator at say 150hz with short amplitude have enough power to vibrate rocks thru a thin plastic hopper shell ? ?
I think your suggestion of 80 to 120 HZ would work well, but I bet you could easily dial in the best frequency to create the action you wanted in the hopper just by looking at it in realtime. I believe that even lower frequencies would work really well. A regular tumbler takes less than 50 watts to make it work. In my thinking, it seems you would not need more than 50 watts to make a speaker work just as good. You will want to remove the speaker cone to keep it from being so loud and this will reduce the air pressure loading on it so you will get more power to the rocks than you think. >> Can they handle potential moisture ? I'm sure I can keep the nastiness out of the sensitive parts.
>> I found a couple of used units. Can I send one to you to connect to your tone generator ? To tinker with ? Might be easier than working with the 15" woofer. I would be happy to play with your parts. I am surprised that this idea has not occurred to me before, I work with speakers everyday, even rebuilding and repairing. Also wonder how much Value I can Add to a batch of quartz polished with Pink Floyd and provided with a video of the polishing process ?
Oops, I just noticed your answers 2 days later. Thanks Tim. Your answers all informative. Especially the description of operation of a speaker verses a butt kicker. A bass speaker cone must fight a lot of air resistance to generate insane air waves to shake an entire room. Impressive that only 100 watts applied to a paper cone can make such a powerful effect. What you said about a butt kicker sounds like a perfect device custom made for vibrating a vibe tumbler. Would the vibrator in a cell phone be a miniature butt kicker ? It may be that a much smaller buttkicker will work for a 4 to 6 pound vibe. Who knows. Anxious to see what you come up with. If you need a hopper welded up let me know. I have plenty of thin wall 6" pipe. 6" PVC. And 6" HDPE. For prototype the steel is easiest for me to work with. My glass vibe uses steel with no rubber/plastic coating and polish comes out just fine. FYI I was able to remove the protective can covering the magnet/solenoid and caulk all potential leakage points including the electric wire entry. Guessing it would now be safe to put under water. The used Aura units I purchased are old (model AST-1B-4) at only 25 watts, the newer model(AST-2B-4) are 50 watts(for a higher visceral experience lol). Yes, the ad says for a higher visceral experience. I was surprised at their weight and industrial quality. They look like something the military had contracted out. With my vibe I used a crude mechanical method(simply added weight to hopper and moved the hopper closer to the vibration source) to lower the amplitude of probably a sine wave motion. The results were phenomenal, all the sudden the vibe would polish glass even under unsuitable conditions and quickly. To be able to control the vibratory input waveform shape and strength electronically would be the ultimate control for a rock vibe. Unheard of. I know that industrial vibes are equipped with frequency/amplitude sine wave adjustment but are limited to sine wave motion. Who knows, maybe a saw tooth or square wave input works best after mechanical hysteresis and damping influence of hopper and rocks. ALL industrial tumblers use off-balance motor counterweights and are limited to sine wave motion. A solenoid is another whole animal, it can be commanded to even make millions of music waveform outputs. "I am surprised that this idea has not occurred to me before, I work with speakers everyday, even rebuilding and repairing." Music and related equipment is all about making and understanding vibrations. Signal generators, amplifiers and speakers/butt kickers is 100% vibration creation/manipulation.
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Jan 9, 2022 21:35:36 GMT -5
Here is my Shop and Workbench from last week . . .
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waterboysh
spending too much on rocks
Member since April 2021
Posts: 369
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Post by waterboysh on Sept 8, 2022 9:37:08 GMT -5
Hey jamesp did you ever get the alternate motor working? I'm in the situation where my Lot-o motor died at the end of May after only 4 months and no one has replacements. I talked to Shawn at the Rock Shed, and he said they have successfully replaced one of their motors with this $40 motor on Amazon. He didn't really go into much detail about it though other than to say they "cut off the tabs where the original lot-o mounted and then just drilled holes into the back of the lot-o frame." I'm considering trying this myself, but I don't know how it will impact the quality of the tumble. The only thing I know is this motor runs at 3600 RPM vs the 3000 RPM of the OEM motor. You seem to know a lot more on this topic than I do, so what are your thoughts? Here are the specs listed on Amazon: - Voltage: AC 110V Single-Phase
- Current: 0.25/0.28/0.465/0.495/0.545/0.615/0.628/0.821 A
- Power: 30/40/50/60/70/80/90/100W
- Speed (R P M)(50Hz): 3000
- Speed (R P M) (60Hz): 3600
- Force: 0.3/0.4/0.5/0.6/0.7/0.8/0.9/1.0 kN
What's interesting is that the counterweights are adjustable. The main thing that makes me hesitant to try this though is the need to modify the frame so that the OEM motor wouldn't be able to be reattached.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Sept 8, 2022 10:24:23 GMT -5
Hey jamesp did you ever get the alternate motor working? I'm in the situation where my Lot-o motor died at the end of May after only 4 months and no one has replacements. I talked to Shawn at the Rock Shed, and he said they have successfully replaced one of their motors with this $40 motor on Amazon. He didn't really go into much detail about it though other than to say they "cut off the tabs where the original lot-o mounted and then just drilled holes into the back of the lot-o frame." I'm considering trying this myself, but I don't know how it will impact the quality of the tumble. The only thing I know is this motor runs at 3600 RPM vs the 3000 RPM of the OEM motor. You seem to know a lot more on this topic than I do, so what are your thoughts? Here are the specs listed on Amazon: - Voltage: AC 110V Single-Phase
- Current: 0.25/0.28/0.465/0.495/0.545/0.615/0.628/0.821 A
- Power: 30/40/50/60/70/80/90/100W
- Speed (R P M)(50Hz): 3000
- Speed (R P M) (60Hz): 3600
- Force: 0.3/0.4/0.5/0.6/0.7/0.8/0.9/1.0 kN
What's interesting is that the counterweights are adjustable. The main thing that makes me hesitant to try this though is the need to modify the frame so that the OEM motor wouldn't be able to be reattached. Mechanical modifications aside("cut off the tabs where the original lot-o mounted and then just drilled holes into the back of the lot-o frame."): If the motor is the same weight and it's shaft centerline is mounted in the same location as the OEM motor you should have no problem(the new motor is basically a true replacement and is exactly the same as the OEM except it spins 600rpm faster). In other words you have replaced the OEM motor with a twin other than the new motor spins 600rpm faster. 3600rpm is not that much faster than 3000rpm in the scheme of things. If in Europe on 50hz the 3000rpm motor would be running at 2400rpm. How would it perform ? If in a country with 70hz the 3000rpm motor would be running at about 3600rpm... My DC motor will do 7000rpm. My guess is that I may have to reduce the amount of mass of the counterbalance to some degree to reduce the back and forth travel distance(amplitude). Oddly I found a 7000rpm DC motor that was almost a(mechanical) duplicate to the OEM motor. I need to finish that project as it was a fortunate mechanical replacement motor. I found a cracked spring in the Lot-O which put a damper on progress, got new springs just need to finish her up ! Dang cheapo Lot-O springs...
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Post by oregon on Sept 8, 2022 12:24:54 GMT -5
Dang cheapo Lot-O springs...
busted sawzall blades seem to make a decent replacement
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waterboysh
spending too much on rocks
Member since April 2021
Posts: 369
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Post by waterboysh on Sept 8, 2022 13:59:16 GMT -5
jamesp Would the size and/or weight of the counterweights not impact anything? I just don't have enough experience with vibe tumbling to know by feel what would be good or bad. I don't want to make the vibe more aggressive by mistake and not even know it. Also, I don't think the shaft will be in the exact same position. It'll probably be close though.
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