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Post by jasoninsd on Feb 3, 2021 0:12:57 GMT -5
I'm really disappointed in my results and looking for guidance from some of you more experienced cabbers. I keep seeing pictures posted of cabs with an almost glass-like finish and what I'm able to produce is nowhere near! These are some Stone Canyon Brecciated Jasper and Silver Lace Onyx cabs I've done this last week. I was so dejected with the results, I haven't been real excited to post pictures of them. But I really need to show them to get some input. I know some material has a tendency to undercut, but I can't imagine I'm not doing something wrong in order to prevent some of this. Besides the undercutting, the massive problem are these surface pits. And I don't mean the ones in the material itself (there's a pit in the top edge of the smaller Stone Canyon - which I know is material related). I'm talking about the "pitting" in the polish that can be clearly seen in the Silver Lace Onyx cabs. I know I'm starting to grasp the shaping of cabs...note I said starting to grasp. However, the polish I'm getting on these is so crappy it's very disheartening. What am I doing wrong? Am I not spending enough time in a certain stage? I use a slant cabber (angled flat lap) for making cabs. I have an 80 and 180 grit grinding disks for shaping. I use 220/325/600/1200/3000 polishing disks that have the sponge pad backing between them and the backing plate. Then I have a buffing disk with 14,000 grit diamond paste. It probably takes me about an hour to complete a cab - from start to finish - shaping to buffing. ARGHHHH! Please send help!!!  I really could use some advice...thoughts...ideas...            |
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nik
spending too much on rocks
Member since May 2019
Posts: 315
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Post by nik on Feb 3, 2021 2:03:52 GMT -5
I had a similar machine for a while, and found that the step from 3000 to 14000 was too big. A couple minutes with 8000 diamond paste might help, and still be fairly cheap too. If memory serves, the spindle has 1/4 20 internal threads, so you should be able to just get a thread on face plate.
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Post by stephan on Feb 3, 2021 2:21:23 GMT -5
Maybe I’m not seeing it, or maybe you’re being hard on yourself. I think you got a good shine. I would say that those cabs would sell. I keep going back to the first silver lace. It is truly scenic. It would do well had you submitted it to the Winter cab contest.
All that aside, any problems you’re having with it are also material related. Remember, it’s not onyx, it’s limestone. To make it more difficult, the plumes really are silver (and you have heavy-duty plumes). Two very different materials. If I see anything, it looks like a little bumpiness in the silver, but it looks minor.
Ironically, for softer materials, old wheels sometimes work better. I’m working on ones that have almost no diamonds left. They work really well for soft stuff, but I nearly pulled my hair out, trying to get the scratches out of bloodstone. If you have new wheels, try an even lighter touch, or completely skip two first two grits. You can cut at 300 or so, easily. Also, maybe wear out your wheels/pads on some Brazilian agates or Owyhee jasper, and then come back to the softer stones. Or, if you have a leather or felt pad, try 50k or 100k with very little water. Let ‘em get a little hot. But... if you let them do that, don’t be surprised at a slight color change.
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Post by rockjunquie on Feb 3, 2021 8:09:12 GMT -5
The polish onn the silver lace looks like you picked up "orange peel". Some materials will do that- Jade being the worst, I think. Dull wheels are best for avoiding it, or a very light touch on the soft wheels. Look up orange peel in the RTH search box. It's been discussed before.
I agree that adding 8000 can help with the harder material. I can't tell that your SCJ looks bad, though.
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Feb 3, 2021 9:34:24 GMT -5
I think Tela's right on the Silver Lace - orange peel. PITA to be sure. I agree with nik that getting an 8,000 in between the 3,000 and 14,000 would help.
Like the others have said, worn discs work better on softer material, but since you don't have really worn discs yet, a lighter touch (feather light) would help. It may take you longer (it takes me a day at least to cut a cab - I'm the slowest cabber on the planet!) but it would be worth it.
Also, the Stone Canyon looks fine except for the part with the matrix on it. Matrix in stones may or may not play nice. This one didn't. If you want it to look better, you could reshape it to eliminate that area. The only other thing you could do is to stabilize that area, take it back down a few grits and repolish it.
What type of polishing pad are you using with your 14K diamond? That could make a difference, too. Eventually you may want to get some different polishing media in your arsenal (oxides).
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Post by hummingbirdstones2 on Feb 3, 2021 9:37:32 GMT -5
Yeah, the 8000 is a good option to have. It's also good to look closely at the stones after each stage if your results aren't what you expected. Some stones just don't like one particular grit along the way. I'll skip the 280 Nova (soft stones) or the 3000 on some types. For some reason, boulder opal doesn't like 14,000.
For most stones we use a 50K diamond, and then white (optical grade) cerium or 0.3 micron aluminum oxide. The oxides will get stuck in any surface pits or vugs in your stones, though, and can be tough to remove. The optical grade cerium and 0.3 micron AlOx are in the 80-90,000 grit range. The cerium is more friable, so it breaks down faster and gives a great shine to most stones. The AlOx is a Mohs 9, so it's better on some very hard stones, and not as good on some average hardness stones.
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Post by stephan on Feb 3, 2021 14:23:35 GMT -5
I think Tela's right on the Silver Lace - orange peel. PITA to be sure. I agree with nik that getting an 8,000 in between the 3,000 and 14,000 would help.
Like the others have said, worn discs work better on softer material, but since you don't have really worn discs yet, a lighter touch (feather light) would help. It may take you longer (it takes me a day at least to cut a cab - I'm the slowest cabber on the planet!) but it would be worth it.
Also, the Stone Canyon looks fine except for the part with the matrix on it. Matrix in stones may or may not play nice. This one didn't. If you want it to look better, you could reshape it to eliminate that area. The only other thing you could do is to stabilize that area, take it back down a few grits and repolish it.
What type of polishing pad are you using with your 14K diamond? That could make a difference, too. Eventually you may want to get some different polishing media in your arsenal (oxides).
I can imagine that people who focus on opal are used to going slowly. An "oops" gouge is probably way more expensive for you than most of us. I hate it when I slip off the 280 wheel and put a gouge into the cab with the edge of the hard 220. I envision tears if you do that with opal. As for orange peeling, I've never had that on my silver lace, but the stuff I work has relatively fine plumes, so it's pretty uniform. I wonder if that makes the difference. Plus, I stay away from hard wheels, and I haven't flat-lapped. |
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Feb 3, 2021 16:23:34 GMT -5
I have slipped off a wheel and gouged stones, too, stephen. Never an opal though, because I cut all of those on the flat lap. I just can't see what I'm doing very well on the wheels. Vince cuts his on the wheels, though.
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Post by rockpickerforever on Feb 3, 2021 16:35:17 GMT -5
I have slipped off a wheel and gouged stones, too, stephen . Never an opal though, because I cut all of those on the flat lap. I just can't see what I'm doing very well on the wheels. Vince cuts his on the wheels, though.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2021 16:51:55 GMT -5
Get the stone wet.
See how it dries.
I cant say for sure
But: How the rock reacts to water
Is an indicator on how it will polish.
That being said?
Take your time.
I can only do one cab at a time
And i have found
That when i rush?
I spend even more time
Going back to fix my screw ups
Also?
Have fun
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Post by rmf on Feb 3, 2021 17:14:54 GMT -5
jasoninsd I have not personally been inclined to use a slant cabber:) Now that that is out of me. nik is correct 3000 to 14K is too big a step. Also are your laps diamond or SiC? Assuming Diamond, if you are going to stop at 3000 then you need to add conventional polish. For the conventional polish I use Tin Oxide with some Linde A ( 2-3 tbl spoons) per pound of Tin. I get better results with that than cerium. For the Silver lace onyx use tin oxide and 2 tblspoons of Oxalic acid. (always keep the polishes in water, I use a 1pt freezer container) Keep this polish separate from the agate/jasper polish to use on just CaCo3 material (Silver lace Onyx, travertine, petoskey stone, marble...) I have found that an 8000 diamond wheel (broken in) will put an good polish on both silver lace onyx and stone canyon.
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Feb 3, 2021 18:10:45 GMT -5
I have slipped off a wheel and gouged stones, too, stephen . Never an opal though, because I cut all of those on the flat lap. I just can't see what I'm doing very well on the wheels. Vince cuts his on the wheels, though.
Thanks, Jean!  |
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Post by jasoninsd on Feb 3, 2021 19:34:42 GMT -5
I had a similar machine for a while, and found that the step from 3000 to 14000 was too big. A couple minutes with 8000 diamond paste might help, and still be fairly cheap too. If memory serves, the spindle has 1/4 20 internal threads, so you should be able to just get a thread on face plate. Thanks Nik!  I've been wondering about that jump. I've got diamond paste, buffer pads, and a dremel that I could use to eliminate the jump for the time being to see it that helps. Good suggestion. Maybe I’m not seeing it, or maybe you’re being hard on yourself. I think you got a good shine. I would say that those cabs would sell. I keep going back to the first silver lace. It is truly scenic. It would do well had you submitted it to the Winter cab contest. All that aside, any problems you’re having with it are also material related. Remember, it’s not onyx, it’s limestone. To make it more difficult, the plumes really are silver (and you have heavy-duty plumes). Two very different materials. If I see anything, it looks like a little bumpiness in the silver, but it looks minor. Ironically, for softer materials, old wheels sometimes work better. I’m working on ones that have almost no diamonds left. They work really well for soft stuff, but I nearly pulled my hair out, trying to get the scratches out of bloodstone. If you have new wheels, try an even lighter touch, or completely skip two first two grits. You can cut at 300 or so, easily. Also, maybe wear out your wheels/pads on some Brazilian agates or Owyhee jasper, and then come back to the softer stones. Or, if you have a leather or felt pad, try 50k or 100k with very little water. Let ‘em get a little hot. But... if you let them do that, don’t be surprised at a slight color change. Thanks Stephan. The two Silver Lace are actually for my mom. She picked them out of all the finished cabs and preforms I had showed her last week...so I just wanted them to be as close to "blemish-free" as possible. Of course, she's my mom and she's going to say they look fantastic no matter what...but I'd know! LOL I'm really struggling with the "light touch". I think it's my impatient trait kicking in. I think I start out pretty light, then think "Oh, a little more pressure to finish quicker won't make THAT much of a difference." - WRONG apparently! I think I'll have to try skipping a couple of the coarser grits... The buffing pad is a felt type buffing wheel charged with the diamond paste. I still haven't tried the leather or felt yet...I could see the pitting (orange peel) before I even got to the buffing stage, so I knew I was already dissatisfied with them... The polish onn the silver lace looks like you picked up "orange peel". Some materials will do that- Jade being the worst, I think. Dull wheels are best for avoiding it, or a very light touch on the soft wheels. Look up orange peel in the RTH search box. It's been discussed before.
I agree that adding 8000 can help with the harder material. I can't tell that your SCJ looks bad, though.
Thanks Tela. Orange Peel! That's exactly what it is. I'll do a search and research it. Thank you for that! I took those pics of the SCJ late at night. I think if I would've taken them in the daylight, pics would've shown some more of the undercutting... I think Tela's right on the Silver Lace - orange peel. PITA to be sure. I agree with nik that getting an 8,000 in between the 3,000 and 14,000 would help.
Like the others have said, worn discs work better on softer material, but since you don't have really worn discs yet, a lighter touch (feather light) would help. It may take you longer (it takes me a day at least to cut a cab - I'm the slowest cabber on the planet!) but it would be worth it.
Also, the Stone Canyon looks fine except for the part with the matrix on it. Matrix in stones may or may not play nice. This one didn't. If you want it to look better, you could reshape it to eliminate that area. The only other thing you could do is to stabilize that area, take it back down a few grits and repolish it.
What type of polishing pad are you using with your 14K diamond? That could make a difference, too. Eventually you may want to get some different polishing media in your arsenal (oxides).
Thanks Robin! I thought I was getting the "light touch", but obviously I have a long way to go! LOL And I'll slow down... I do realize I chose the wrong shape on that SCJ. I've got to work on not trying to use every inch of a slab and realize there's just going to be some wasted if I want the best end result. I'm just so stingy with material right now, it kills me to have any that goes unused! LOL - I'll work on that! I'm using the Hi-Tech Diamond Tech-11 polishing pads which are made with high-density wool felt... Yeah, the 8000 is a good option to have. It's also good to look closely at the stones after each stage if your results aren't what you expected. Some stones just don't like one particular grit along the way. I'll skip the 280 Nova (soft stones) or the 3000 on some types. For some reason, boulder opal doesn't like 14,000.
For most stones we use a 50K diamond, and then white (optical grade) cerium or 0.3 micron aluminum oxide. The oxides will get stuck in any surface pits or vugs in your stones, though, and can be tough to remove. The optical grade cerium and 0.3 micron AlOx are in the 80-90,000 grit range. The cerium is more friable, so it breaks down faster and gives a great shine to most stones. The AlOx is a Mohs 9, so it's better on some very hard stones, and not as good on some average hardness stones.
Thanks Vince! I'm still struggling with seeing the imperfections along the way. I need to get one of those headband/visor loupe thingys... Are you using the AO on the leather burnishing/polishing pad you just made (replaced)? It looks like I need to get another type of buffing wheel other than the wool felt. My wife will be SO excited to hear I need another tool in the arsenal! LOL I think Tela's right on the Silver Lace - orange peel. PITA to be sure. I agree with nik that getting an 8,000 in between the 3,000 and 14,000 would help.
Like the others have said, worn discs work better on softer material, but since you don't have really worn discs yet, a lighter touch (feather light) would help. It may take you longer (it takes me a day at least to cut a cab - I'm the slowest cabber on the planet!) but it would be worth it.
Also, the Stone Canyon looks fine except for the part with the matrix on it. Matrix in stones may or may not play nice. This one didn't. If you want it to look better, you could reshape it to eliminate that area. The only other thing you could do is to stabilize that area, take it back down a few grits and repolish it.
What type of polishing pad are you using with your 14K diamond? That could make a difference, too. Eventually you may want to get some different polishing media in your arsenal (oxides).
I can imagine that people who focus on opal are used to going slowly. An "oops" gouge is probably way more expensive for you than most of us. I hate it when I slip off the 280 wheel and put a gouge into the cab with the edge of the hard 220. I envision tears if you do that with opal. As for orange peeling, I've never had that on my silver lace, but the stuff I work has relatively fine plumes, so it's pretty uniform. I wonder if that makes the difference. Plus, I stay away from hard wheels, and I haven't flat-lapped. Maybe your Silver Lace is the "old-stock" good stuff!  I have slipped off a wheel and gouged stones, too, stephen . Never an opal though, because I cut all of those on the flat lap. I just can't see what I'm doing very well on the wheels. Vince cuts his on the wheels, though.
Who are you talking to? LOL Get the stone wet. See how it dries. I cant say for sure But: How the rock reacts to water Is an indicator on how it will polish. That being said? Take your time. I can only do one cab at a time And i have found That when i rush? I spend even more time Going back to fix my screw ups Also? Have fun Thanks Paul! You are one of the people I was referring to when I said I was seeing glass-like finishes - and your work is setting the bar in my mind! I'm going to have to really slow down and I have to remember my heritage is German...not "Rushin" jasoninsd I have not personally been inclined to use a slant cabber:) Now that that is out of me. nik is correct 3000 to 14K is too big a step. Also are your laps diamond or SiC? Assuming Diamond, if you are going to stop at 3000 then you need to add conventional polish. For the conventional polish I use Tin Oxide with some Linde A ( 2-3 tbl spoons) per pound of Tin. I get better results with that than cerium. For the Silver lace onyx use tin oxide and 2 tblspoons of Oxalic acid. (always keep the polishes in water, I use a 1pt freezer container) Keep this polish separate from the agate/jasper polish to use on just CaCo3 material (Silver lace Onyx, travertine, petoskey stone, marble...) I have found that an 8000 diamond wheel (broken in) will put an good polish on both silver lace onyx and stone canyon. Thanks RMF! The slant cabber was the best option in the price range I was looking at...and of course I'd love to have a cabbing machine - eventually. The disks are diamond. Here's a link to what they are: hitechdiamond.com/collections/diamond-discs/products/diamond-smoothing-discsBasically, I don't have enough tools in my arsenal yet... Thanks for the info on the polish. I really don't know enough yet about the different characteristics of the stones and what to use when and where, so thank you so much for this! Thanks, Jean! Don't feel too badly...I've done that to him too! |
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Post by hummingbirdstones2 on Feb 3, 2021 21:26:10 GMT -5
Hey Jason.
We do use leather for most final polishes. For soft stones I sometimes use felt.
When I was setting up my first flat lap I cut scrap stainless sheet metal disks for backers so I didn't have to buy a bunch of laps. (Being an old ironworker I'm a scrap-metal packrat, so I know not everyone has that kind of stuff lying around.) Any kind of dense closed-cell foam rubber for pads will work. Stretch some leather and let it dry, then cut it to make your final polish pads. Good way to make a few different polishing disks if you can come up with scrap materials.
This kind of setup would let you switch "toppers" for your polishes using just one master lap. Trust me, I know how fast buying those things adds up.
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Post by jasoninsd on Feb 3, 2021 21:44:19 GMT -5
Hey Jason.
We do use leather for most final polishes. For soft stones I sometimes use felt.
When I was setting up my first flat lap I cut scrap stainless sheet metal disks for backers so I didn't have to buy a bunch of laps. (Being an old ironworker I'm a scrap-metal packrat, so I know not everyone has that kind of stuff lying around.) Any kind of dense closed-cell foam rubber for pads will work. Stretch some leather and let it dry, then cut it to make your final polish pads. Good way to make a few different polishing disks if you can come up with scrap materials.
This kind of setup would let you switch "toppers" for your polishes using just one master lap. Trust me, I know how fast buying those things adds up.
Thankfully my dad retired from the Air Force, then went and worked in the mechanical engineering department at SDSM&T and retired again from that job. He too is a packrat and has been through both of those careers LOL...which I'm happy about at times like this...but my mother has never been too pleased about it! LOL I will be getting with him and see if he's up for a new "project". Thanks for your help on this one Vince. |
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Post by stephan on Feb 4, 2021 0:23:18 GMT -5
Thanks, Jean! I bet Stephen is confused when he gets my tags.  You’re far from the only one. |
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Post by jasoninsd on Feb 4, 2021 0:43:08 GMT -5
Thanks, Jean! I bet Stephen is confused when he gets my tags.  You’re far from the only one. He hasn't been on in almost four years...I imagine his notifications have to be maxed out if he ever logs back on! Oops! LOL |
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Post by stephan on Feb 4, 2021 0:46:30 GMT -5
I bet Stephen is confused when he gets my tags. You’re far from the only one. He hasn't been on in almost four years...I imagine his notifications have to be maxed out if he ever logs back on! Oops! LOL Well, that solves that. |
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Post by rockjunquie on Feb 4, 2021 8:25:15 GMT -5
He hasn't been on in almost four years...I imagine his notifications have to be maxed out if he ever logs back on! Oops! LOL Well, that solves that. Do you pronounce it Stee ven or Stef aun? In my head I always think Stef aun. |
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Post by stephan on Feb 4, 2021 8:38:58 GMT -5
Do you pronounce it Stee ven or Stef aun? In my head I always think Stef aun. Here in the States, it’s as you imagine. The German pronunciation is Shte faun |
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