jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Aug 8, 2022 12:03:39 GMT -5
mohs it is technological advances in materials that advanced man so rapidly of recent. (ex. jet engines) Without those materials we would be far behind our present advances. The Mayan's had to burn 20 mature trees just to make a cubic meter of lime plaster to build their monuments and reservoir structures. They then had no forests left therefore increasing drought and the land became too desolate for farming to feed their large population.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Aug 8, 2022 12:57:17 GMT -5
I am of the school of thought that upright walking, two legged intelligent and creative beings have populated "habitable" regions of this planet, long before what evidence we have found thus far, can indicate. If climate, natural resource and terrain could support and sustain animal life, two legged creatures may well have left foot-prints......regardless of the geological time frames that/those lives existed in......and physical, on foot, by land or sea migration, was not the only means by which these creatures traveled......simply following food sources, climate and traversable land or sea paths from continent to continent over/during great periods of time, makes no sense at all to me.........another subject for the Cave...? As for the evolution of, or lack there-of, tools, structures and craft's of any sort, being left behind by theses travelers, as far back as mankind's history can be traced, necessity has always been the mother of invention............I don't believe it was any different for intelligent and creative two legged, upright beings, ages ago. Intervention was and has been inspired by influence and need all through mankind's history.......be it by the 1% over achievers of a particular tribe or outside influencers that were much more highly advanced, that took advantage of or exploited those manpower resources for their own benefit & needs. I'll probably not be here long enough to have many of my questions answered by discovery, analysis and argument (which there will be plenty to come)........but those questions I have gained knowledge and insight into, thus far, have convinced me that much of the history of mankind's evolution, we can thus far identify, has many periods or gaps of acceleration and pause, that does/do not follow many of the natural event "time-frames" we have labeled. Leading me to believe that either our scale of time and occurrence needs to be re-tooled, or outside influence other than that of our own making, has played a major part in our evolution.......The later being more and more convincing to me. Agreed, the subject of man's arrangement/arrival on earth is totally complex, perhaps equal to the complexity level of how the earth came into existence. My opinions are restricted here(and many other places) by controversial beliefs kindly shareable in the cave and this fact alone gives rise to some answers controlled by oddly suspicious forces perhaps beyond science. It is acceptable to discuss all science opinions but not all opinions based on belief. That predicament alone is intriguing, even telling to exciting. Science is based on beliefs stemming from evidence but not all evidence is infallible. Imagine what ran thru early man's mind. His deductions and learning processes were no different than today's. He too turned to higher entities but a different one depending on which group of people is being observed. Obviously someone is wrong about about the identity of these higher entities since there is a long list of different ones across the world. But most of these early civilizations did look to higher powers which is telling in itself. In many cases the evidence they left behind is related to the objects they constructed relative to these higher powers. |
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Post by HankRocks on Aug 8, 2022 12:59:24 GMT -5
The Mound Culture was impressive rmf and more so than most are aware. High intelligence levels does not necessarily leave evidence records behind. Is it intelligent to force slavery and spend time and effort building massive stone pyramids ? Hey, if you don't need a structure why build it ? There are much better ways to pass time and maintain a happy culture. Perhaps the Egyptians learned how to convert the highest percentage of their population to slaves than any civilization on earth. What type of living conditions and society could that produce ? Probably not so good excepting royalty(that has one concerned eye on that massive slave population lol) I would guess that one problem with any society with royalty can be subject to the issues arising from inbreeding. At some point your rulers are going to be suspect individuals. Palace coups that wiped out one set of people and installed another was probably a good thing. That and the practice of having multiple wives probably helped reduce this issue, expand the gene pool. |
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Aug 8, 2022 14:02:58 GMT -5
The Mound Culture was impressive rmf and more so than most are aware. High intelligence levels does not necessarily leave evidence records behind. Is it intelligent to force slavery and spend time and effort building massive stone pyramids ? Hey, if you don't need a structure why build it ? There are much better ways to pass time and maintain a happy culture. Perhaps the Egyptians learned how to convert the highest percentage of their population to slaves than any civilization on earth. What type of living conditions and society could that produce ? Probably not so good excepting royalty(that has one concerned eye on that massive slave population lol) I would guess that one problem with any society with royalty can be subject to the issues arising from inbreeding. At some point your rulers are going to be suspect individuals. Palace coups that wiped out one set of people and installed another was probably a good thing. That and the practice of having multiple wives probably helped reduce this issue, expand the gene pool. Mound culture is scary Henry. The ladies may have not been treated so well. Human sacrifice was not uncommon. Oddly they built 5 sided mounds. www.memoriesoftheprairie.com/blog/2020/1/28/human-sacrifices-at-cahokia-mounds"The people in Cahokia also practiced human sacrifice. Excavations in 1967 uncovered a mass burial on the site of Mound 72. Around 280 skeletons were uncovered. Around 80% of the bodies were young women. They were placed in neat rows, without signs of trauma. They were likely killed by strangulation or blood-letting. In a separate pit, there are around 40 men and women bodies. They were killed by violent means, including decapitation, arrow wounds, and horrific fractures. Evidence shows some dug their nails into the soil, suggesting they were buried alive. Archeologists speculate they were prisoners of war or objectors to human sacrifice practices." |
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gemfeller
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Post by gemfeller on Aug 8, 2022 14:41:17 GMT -5
The Mound Culture was impressive rmf and more so than most are aware. High intelligence levels does not necessarily leave evidence records behind. Is it intelligent to force slavery and spend time and effort building massive stone pyramids ? Hey, if you don't need a structure why build it ? There are much better ways to pass time and maintain a happy culture. Perhaps the Egyptians learned how to convert the highest percentage of their population to slaves than any civilization on earth. What type of living conditions and society could that produce ? Probably not so good excepting royalty(that has one concerned eye on that massive slave population lol) What evidence exists proving the Mounds were built by slaves? We now know for sure the Egyptian pyramids were not built by slaves. Much has been published about that. From my research it seems almost nothing is known in detail about the Cahokians. That's also true for the builders of Stonehenge, Avebury and other major sites in the U.K. There appears to have been an annual non-permanent settlement at Stonehenge when people came together for whatever reason (religious, cultural, astronomical, agronomical etc.) to work together building monumental structures willingly. Even the hapless people sacrificed by having their hearts torn out in Aztec and Mayan ceremonies appear to have done so willingly to appease whatever gods they were pledged to. While slavery was common in all those cultures (as it has been from earliest historical times in all cultures around the world), little evidence I've seen confirms it was the modus used in building monumental structures. But new evidence comes to light every year so the big ball of twin unwinds slowly and inexorably. |
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Post by mohs on Aug 8, 2022 15:01:11 GMT -5
Mohs is going to take the straight slow materialist evolution route Genetics are selfish and the only goal is to reproduce Keep on wiggling There may be an intelligence behind a; this Butte it a 80/30 chance its a totally immoral brute I try to reason those odds in favor in favor of benevolence butte it just doesn't add up,,m  slty Got my humanistic reasoning behind all this Butte I don’t get paid to philosophize And the roof is leaking Or some other calamity Now we’ve hit cave status  |
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gemfeller
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Post by gemfeller on Aug 8, 2022 15:46:44 GMT -5
Mohs is going to take the straight slow materialist evolution route Genetics are selfish and the only goal is to reproduce Keep on wiggling There may be an intelligence behind a; this Butte it a 80/30 chance its a totally immoral brute I try to reason those odds in favor in favor of benevolence butte it just doesn't add up,,m slty Got my humanistic reasoning behind all this Butte I don’t get paid to philosophize And the roof is leaking Or some other calamity Now we’ve hit cave status We Mohstly agree on this. I'm at odds with much of what Dawkins has to say but his "selfish gene" thinking collates almost exactly with what I've arrived at on my own. Genes control us, reproduction at any cost no matter how cruel. It seems to me that human society is doomed without some metaphysical basis. We're doing that enthusiastically and with relish in this post-Christian era but we also did it during earlier times, metaphysics be damned. Still I find it difficult to live without some purpose and respect for others. I think our race is close to a critical inflection point. |
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Aug 8, 2022 16:14:16 GMT -5
The Mound Culture was impressive rmf and more so than most are aware. High intelligence levels does not necessarily leave evidence records behind. Is it intelligent to force slavery and spend time and effort building massive stone pyramids ? Hey, if you don't need a structure why build it ? There are much better ways to pass time and maintain a happy culture. Perhaps the Egyptians learned how to convert the highest percentage of their population to slaves than any civilization on earth. What type of living conditions and society could that produce ? Probably not so good excepting royalty(that has one concerned eye on that massive slave population lol) What evidence exists proving the Mounds were built by slaves? We now know for sure the Egyptian pyramids were not built by slaves. Much has been published about that. From my research it seems almost nothing is known in detail about the Cahokians. That's also true for the builders of Stonehenge, Avebury and other major sites in the U.K. There appears to have been an annual non-permanent settlement at Stonehenge when people came together for whatever reason (religious, cultural, astronomical, agronomical etc.) to work together building monumental structures willingly. Even the hapless people sacrificed by having their hearts torn out in Aztec and Mayan ceremonies appear to have done so willingly to appease whatever gods they were pledged to. While slavery was common in all those cultures (as it has been from earliest historical times in all cultures around the world), little evidence I've seen confirms it was the modus used in building monumental structures. But new evidence comes to light every year so the big ball of twin unwinds slowly and inexorably. Perhaps slavery is the incorrect word. My cynical Irish nature tells me that people suffered heavily in the torturous process of building those pyramids. I can't believe differently. I have to trust my belief in this case. They may have done it for a God or a king and slavery was not involved, but they were seriously deceived into thinking they were doing the right thing. Somewhat similar to a man believing it is favorable to have his heart torn out for any cause or the citizens of Nazi Germany following Hitler's agenda. The conclusions all ended in great pain. The pyramids do stand to this day as an impressive monument but at what cost. |
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Post by mohs on Aug 8, 2022 16:25:32 GMT -5
Hey Mr Gemfeller I kind of threw the 'selfish gene' thing out there just to be provocative. Can’t say I’ve ever read The Dawkins book Tried. That sort of biology gets way to deep for me As far as his science fought reason stance He is militant in that There good reasons to be Whenever we try to moralize about societal values and culture Well... we get in deep Ugly deep Just can’t be clear & concise enough It’s a battle Butte I think Dawkins is a good honest man ― Richard Dawkins, Or maybe he is the devil  I’ve typed up my thoughts on slavery this thread is getting delightful slippery keeps an old man brain wiggling  |
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Aug 8, 2022 16:54:00 GMT -5
Mohs is going to take the straight slow materialist evolution route Genetics are selfish and the only goal is to reproduce Keep on wiggling There may be an intelligence behind a; this Butte it a 80/30 chance its a totally immoral brute I try to reason those odds in favor in favor of benevolence butte it just doesn't add up,,m slty Got my humanistic reasoning behind all this Butte I don’t get paid to philosophize And the roof is leaking Or some other calamity Now we’ve hit cave status Blaming selfishness on genes is avoiding the reality that much of society has chosen to be selfish to the nth degree. That point tickles humanitarian ears but the reality seems a bit uglier than blaming selfish(and a myriad of other bad behaviors) behavior on genes. People have drawn lines and made their choice to behave as they see fit. |
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Post by mohs on Aug 8, 2022 17:46:21 GMT -5
O nature is deceptive. Even intelligently deceptive. Too intelligent for a somewhat cognitive primate That wallowing in this morass… We only been at this civilization game for what 6000years ? There still hope... but believing that some benevolent stern moral intelligence is conducting every moral fibre of this poor primate flickering is out touch w/ reality also so 2 lost souls in fish bowl year after year there your way and my way really only one way the sun way fun way baby lets go home 
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RWA3006
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Post by RWA3006 on Aug 8, 2022 18:04:08 GMT -5
I appreciate the interesting thoughts expressed here that mirror many of my own but articulated more eloquently than I'm able. I too have studied this topic for years with great interest and marvel at what discovery might be around the next corner. I almost don't even dare speculate any more let alone believe anything too much.
One thing lurking in the back of my mind is most of what I believe on this topic is built upon what we have been told by academics. I know for a fact that junk science is a thing sometimes and can be fabricated in order to get funding. Something to consider when forming our opinions.
Interestingly, I told a buddy about the article quoted in the OP and he remarked "how convenient, a professor finds a spectacular site on his own property! The guy must have wanted that grant pretty badly." This isn't to say I share the same opinion but it gives one pause to think a bit.
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Post by mohs on Aug 8, 2022 18:07:42 GMT -5
And that not what Dawkins was implying in the above quote
He was putting the onus of
-the better angels of our nature-
firmly on our primate shoulders
Can we bear that weight
And what about democracy?
In reality I hope there is judgment day
Consciousness demands it …
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gemfeller
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Post by gemfeller on Aug 8, 2022 18:21:39 GMT -5
RWA3006 It's not just grants that influence academic "research." Most academics have reputations to uphold and textbooks to peddle to new students. I heard a maxim somewhere I'm stating here from memory. I goes something like "You can't make any advances in research until the old faculty people die off." Of course their replacements will have their own reputations and textbooks so it's a generational process.
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pizzano
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Post by pizzano on Aug 8, 2022 19:56:20 GMT -5
I can speak to the issue of higher academic standard and finance, to some extent........I have had friends and colleagues who have either supplemented their incomes or just for the love of the academia climate, that have acquired professor level credential to teach certain specific aspects of Civil Engineering at our local Universities. My wife has also been employed for 21yrs as a Program Specialist (auditor), at a local school district, dealing with Title 1 and special grant funding specifically.
The one thing all of them have explained to me, is that in order to justify and budget the positions they fill, (particularly at the Masters level and higher), they all must stay active and current in the publishing arena......even the High School Principal who must manage people, finances, curriculum, cafeteria menus, janitor schedules, PTA, ect, ect, ect.....all funded by some govt source through grant and or special program allotments........and it's no different for those "research" nerds who are often supported by a private source that must be justified and qualify under govt statutory regulations (what my Wife audits).......publish, publish, publish is the name of the game. No Play, no Pay.
I won't go any further off-topic with this.......but is it any wonder, with those demands to perform, and the simplicity by which public disposable written articulation can be processed, much of what is "thrown" out there for thought and profit......is discernible and left with skepticism even by those who share a common authority of a particular researched and validated subject matter.....?
Just a Thought
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RWA3006
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Post by RWA3006 on Aug 8, 2022 21:27:18 GMT -5
In reality I hope there is judgment day Consciousness demands it … Ed, I'm extremely confident there will be judgement day, sooner for some, later for others, but inevitable regardless. I can feel it in every fiber of my being. Guess I better shape up. |
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Aug 9, 2022 6:36:04 GMT -5
"Only the Divine knows what's really in a man's heart" Bingo mohs. And he also has the answer to every question. Just make sure you consult the true divinity. That would be the one that does the judging. |
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Post by mohs on Aug 9, 2022 11:02:19 GMT -5
Yo jamesp James wish you were the judge your one righteous person  |
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Aug 9, 2022 13:12:55 GMT -5
Yo jamesp James wish you were the judge your one righteous person I'm an unrighteous POS but did give you best edmost advice I know. |
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Post by mohs on Aug 9, 2022 16:31:13 GMT -5
well James were all wretched butte I can imagine you can get pretty ugly appreciate the advice was going to ask further |
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slty 
