bgast1
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since July 2010
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Post by bgast1 on Oct 11, 2010 13:17:51 GMT -5
I have been using my Dremel with not even that great of burs to make some basic shapes and things from some raw rock that I have either collected or purchased. Obviously just small stones. I have not been satisfied with what I have made, but I see great potential with the proper burs and polishing equipment.
I have a few questions. For the carvings and things that I have done so far would I benefit greatly by upgrading to a foredom? or would getting the Dremel Flex Shaft and quality burs and a polishing kit be satisfactory?
I would like to also make cabachons. I have seen by shopping around all in one setups anywhere from $400.00 range upto thousands. I was wondering if some of you could recommend a set up to me that I could use in my home office. It gets too cold in the winter in my garage. Price is a consideration because I imagine I would need materials as well. I really don't want to spend much over $800 to $900. But quality is also a concern as I am keenly aware that you get what you pay for. I also don't know whether the flat lap would be better or the setups where you have several wheels. A saw with the set up would also be nice.
I have a couple of books on lapidary that will help me out. I am just ready to make the plunge and want to learn to put out quality pieces.
Also, sources and the best types of rock for me to work with starting out will help as well.
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Post by jakesrocks on Oct 11, 2010 13:34:45 GMT -5
A Foredom would be a step in the right direction, but will still be hard to cut cabs with. There are several basic cabbing units on the market, starting at just over $800.00 and going into the thousands. Kingsley North has a couple of basic units with a saw, grinding and polishing stages all in one. You can order their catalog at www.kingsleynorth.com/. I'd shy away from things like the Inland Swap Top. They are cheaply built, and lack power. Hope this helps a little. Don
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bgast1
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since July 2010
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Post by bgast1 on Oct 11, 2010 14:04:23 GMT -5
You answered one question that I had. I was wondering about that Inland Swap Top. I actually have another tab set up right now with Kingsleynorth. I was looking at that Lortone unit.
I have actually made a couple of cabs with my Dremel, but I was thinking about using it more for carving and special shapes.
I think that I will be ready to finally be able to purchase some stuff this week.
I think portability might also come into play.
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drjo
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Honduran Opal & DIY Nut
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Post by drjo on Oct 11, 2010 14:31:46 GMT -5
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bgast1
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since July 2010
Posts: 1,076
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Post by bgast1 on Oct 11, 2010 15:12:22 GMT -5
Would I benefit greatly by upgrading to Foredom over my Dremel? If so I think I will go with the Foredom unit at Kingsleynorth.
Can you make just as good of cabachons with the CabMate as the other more expensive units? It looks like it might be the way for me to go. What I want to avoid is having to rebuy equipment as I get better.
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Post by rockmanken on Oct 11, 2010 15:46:53 GMT -5
O.K. Here is my . You WILL have to buy new equiptment as you get better, even if you buy the most expensive. It is the nature of rockhounding and cutting stones. ;D ;D My suggestion would be to get an Ameritool flat lap from John at jsgemslapidary for a little over $400. Later on you may want to go to a vertical machine. The flat lap comes with everything you need(except dop pot, wax and dowels sticks). For a saw, go to Home Depot or Lowe's and get a 7" tile saw for less than $100. It will serve you well. If you want a vertical machine, the stainless steel one from Kingsley North would be my choice. I have used about every kind of machine and been cutting and polishing since the late 60's. I have all kinds of machines, but use the Ameritool and I use a Diamond Jem vertical machine. If I had to do it over, I would go with the cheaper stainless machine. I have a 10" trim saw and a band saw, but I still occasionally still use the QEP 7" tile saw. I have a dremel that is over 30 years old and still use it every week. Never had the need for a Foredom. Ken
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Post by jakesrocks on Oct 11, 2010 15:49:08 GMT -5
The Foredom will give you more power than the Dremel, and you'll have a foot speed control which is nice to have. The CabMate would be a good unit to learn on. The only drawback is that each time you're ready to move on to the next finer grit, you have to stop working and change a wheel. Don
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Post by rockmanken on Oct 11, 2010 15:50:19 GMT -5
As for the rocks to use.....whatever it pretty to you. They are all great. No two alike. Ken
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Post by johnjsgems on Oct 11, 2010 19:12:25 GMT -5
Biggest advantage of the Foredom is the torque. Dremmel has speed but very little torque so it stalls when pressing it against the hard surfaces. I had a friend thet carved professionally and would wear out Dremels every year or so. I asked him why he didn't save money by buying a Foredom but he didn't get it. If you are just starting continue with the Dremel. You may be happy with it and get 30 years use as well I hated the flex shaft on mine and bought a stand so Dremel stays fixed and I can move the rock (kind of like cabbing). The Cab Mate is an extremely well made unit and only drawback is the having to convert or change from step to step. (I don't sell them so this is not an ad).
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bgast1
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since July 2010
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Post by bgast1 on Oct 11, 2010 20:13:07 GMT -5
Biggest advantage of the Foredom is the torque. Dremmel has speed but very little torque so it stalls when pressing it against the hard surfaces. I had a friend thet carved professionally and would wear out Dremels every year or so. I asked him why he didn't save money by buying a Foredom but he didn't get it. If you are just starting continue with the Dremel. You may be happy with it and get 30 years use as well I hated the flex shaft on mine and bought a stand so Dremel stays fixed and I can move the rock (kind of like cabbing). The Cab Mate is an extremely well made unit and only drawback is the having to convert or change from step to step. (I don't sell them so this is not an ad). LOL! I just went out and bought a flex shaft for my dremel this evening. I still need to get some quality burs but I haven't figured out exactly what bur is used for what. Also if I go with the Ameritool flat lap whether to get the 6" or 8". I would also guess I would have to stop and clean up good before changing wheels, grits on this as well. Looked at the Skil 7" tile saw. It was something like $80.00. I almost bought it but I still haven't decided what kind of cab machine to get. I haven't ever made a cab except with my dremel, so I really don't know the pluses or minus of each type of machine, I have worked stones by hand on wet/dry sand paper from the auto supply store and achieved decent results with that. About how long does it take to make a quality cabachon with proper equipment?
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Post by jakesrocks on Oct 11, 2010 20:48:04 GMT -5
I use an all diamond machine, and from the preform stage to polish it takes me between 30 and 45 minutes per cab, Depending on the material and how hard it is to get a good shine on it. But I've been cutting cabs since Jr High back in the 50's. For someone just learning expect at least an hour per cab. Don
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bgast1
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Member since July 2010
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Post by bgast1 on Oct 11, 2010 21:03:37 GMT -5
I use an all diamond machine, and from the preform stage to polish it takes me between 30 and 45 minutes per cab, Depending on the material and how hard it is to get a good shine on it. But I've been cutting cabs since Jr High back in the 50's. For someone just learning expect at least an hour per cab. Don Wow! That is no time at all. With my Dremel it is days, but it gets done. Not as well as I expect with a machine. I am leaning towards that Ameritool machine and 7" tile saw. It seems to be the least expensive way for me to go. How long or how many cabs will a wheel last if properly cared for and used? I am also considering the Cab Mate. I think the saw may be the deciding factor as I figure working with the Ameritool unit will be more similar to what I was doing by hand with wet/dry sandpaper. Switching wheels or grits will not be a factor for me as I already am used to taking days with my Dremel. It's a hard decision for me to make, but I want to make it tomorrow. I will also be looking for some rough rock materials to use. I have a few small rocks that I bought from a rock store in the mall. And everyone. Thank you very much for the replies and help. This is one of the nicest forums that I have ever visited. It seems like everyone who has replied is probably a couple of years older than me. I guess I'm getting started late in life. I was in grade school in the mid 50's. Bob
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Post by johnjsgems on Oct 11, 2010 21:10:27 GMT -5
The Ameritool doesn't really require cleaning between laps/discs. There isn't any grit thrown around like with silicon carbide paper or wheels. The Cabmate comes with one grinding wheel and most people add at least one more. Everything is diamond so not much cleaning between steps there either. If I recall, the Cabmate uses a drip water system similar to Ameritool. I've seen many Ameritool or the similar High Tech Diamond unit used indoors demonstrating at shows. Very quiet and non messy. As far as 6" or 8". Depends on how big a cab you want to cut. Figure with 6" discs minus the center hole/washer/nut you have about 2 1/2" working space. With 8" you have an additional inch. Most of the professional opal cutters I know cut on 6" units (small cabs re the rule). Most general lapidary cutters want to be able to cut larger pieces, finish small geodes, etc. I sell probably 10 8" units to every 8" unit if that means anything.
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bgast1
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Member since July 2010
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Post by bgast1 on Oct 11, 2010 21:16:39 GMT -5
Ok John, I'll probably be back to you a little bit later. If you could help me a bit from the saw angle that will help a lot. How large of a rock can I cut with that 7" skil tile saw, or do I really need a saw? The rocks that I have been using are very rough, if I can just grind them down like I have been doing with my dremel, then maybe I don't need a saw.
You said 8" for both sizes. I am assuming you meant you sell more 8" and I think that is what I am going to go with.
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Post by jakesrocks on Oct 11, 2010 21:57:37 GMT -5
Just from my personal likes and dislikes, I'd go with the cabmate. It comes with a saw, so that would save the cost of and space requirements of an extra piece of equipment. Also I prefer working on vertical wheels to horizontal. A saw will save a lot of wear and tear on your wheels. All of the extra grinding you have to do will wear your wheels out quicker, and those wheels aren't cheap to replace. Another thing to consider. The Graves company has been around for a long time, and they build quality equipment. Don
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Post by Roller on Oct 11, 2010 22:16:38 GMT -5
I recently saw a picture of that skil saw in a homedepot circular .. It lloked like it had some amazing depth of the saw sticking out ... which equals being able to cut bigger rocks ...Then if its too big you will learn the circle technique .. I have the QEP and cut huge rocks with it doing the circle technique ... I beat my saw up bad I mean real bad!!! and it still kicks ..My only complaint is that the cutting surface is not level. Looks like the Skil saw is one piece which means it would be level ..If mine ever breaks I would consider that Skil saw ! Lets just hope it can take a beating like the QEP !!!
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bgast1
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since July 2010
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Post by bgast1 on Oct 11, 2010 23:20:21 GMT -5
Do I need to add anything to the Cab Mate? Additional wheels, what grit? or am I ready to place an order and go? I understand the wheel part, but the pads and discs I don't understand how those are used exactly. I have several books, but the one I like most is by John Sinkankas.
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lparker
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Post by lparker on Oct 12, 2010 6:12:19 GMT -5
Roller - take the top off your QEP...been running mine that way almost since I bought it (WF)
bgast1 - one of the best uses of the tile saw is to pre-shape your cabs...waaay faster than wheels.
Lee
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Post by rockmanken on Oct 12, 2010 7:16:39 GMT -5
You can set the Ameritool up in the living room and get no mess. You can't with the cabmate. Both are portable. I take my Ameritool to shows all the time to demonstrate....actually going to take it Sat. The disadvantage of the Ameritool is that you cannot make crosses or hearts. But you can make intarsia that you can't on the Cabmate. The peel and stick discs on the flat lap and cabmate are less expensive than the belts on vertical machines. You definately need a saw. Like Don said, it saves wear and tear on your discs or belts. Ken
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Post by Roller on Oct 12, 2010 9:14:17 GMT -5
lparker the qep is different than the old workforce ... The top needs to be on the right side otherwise there is a big hole where you pour water in . They are similar but different .. And theres a few different models .. I even seen a 4" portable that looked nice ..
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