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Post by parfive on Dec 3, 2012 20:45:25 GMT -5
Yeah, looks like most of the wingnut/fundie dumbasses have graduated to Stage II. Mel: “Rejoice over global warming greenie dumbasses, it gets a bit warmer, you get to eat a little better.”So, uh, how’d that work out last year with the peanut butter? ;D
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bushmanbilly
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2008
Posts: 4,719
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Post by bushmanbilly on Dec 3, 2012 21:12:26 GMT -5
Yeah, looks like most of the wingnut/fundie dumbasses have graduated to Stage II. Mel: “Rejoice over global warming greenie dumbasses, it gets a bit warmer, you get to eat a little better.”So, uh, how’d that work out last year with the peanut butter? ;D Are you and Al Gore cousins? ;D ;D BTW whats the mileage on that Beamer you drive? Or do you pull it with a horse. Or have you trained your pet hamsters to to create electric power for you Volt. Plant a tree and be free!!!! Just don't piss off the spotted owls.
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Post by parfive on Dec 3, 2012 21:46:06 GMT -5
Yeah, looks like most of the wingnut/fundie dumbasses have graduated to Stage II. I only said *most*, Bushman. That still leaves plenty to keep ya company on the short bus. ;D
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Sabre52
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Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
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Post by Sabre52 on Dec 3, 2012 23:40:52 GMT -5
Wow Rich, I'd hardly call it denial. *L* I actually agree with #2-4 and part of #5 ( everything except it being really bad *L*) I'd call it denial not to believe at least some of those points.
I had all the peanut butter I could eat last year so what's your point. Oh yeah, 'The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" *L* I'm not a snow fan myself. Would you prefer global cooling? Earth for millions and millions of years is always going one way or the other. It's never static. Me, I'd rather be warm than cold and I'd rather eat than starve.
Rave on little Gorebot but don't complain to me when new energy taxes and environmental policies cut into your bankbook as prices on everything go up.
Here' some stages for you Rich:
Stage one: Study millions of years of scientific climate data and only pick and choose the part that fits your theories. Ignore history. Some scientists say we are warming 35 times faster than in the years that led up to medieval times when temps peaked about 1050 ( which sounds dreadful) but we ain't there yet and don't know that it won't turn around and start to cool again. Plus the statistics are a bit deceptive. 35 times faster than real slow is still real darn slow. Climate is not about years, it's about hundreds or thousands of years.
Stage 2: Listen to science whores who exist on government grant money from the party in power and book sales from new volumes they write on their "current" theories, until convinced speculation is undeniable truth.
Stage 3 : PANIC! Then blame it all on man and delude yourself into thinking it can be fixed by man who basically cannot fix diddley squat, much less climate change, because man in general seldom agrees on anything. ( There's your #4 and 5 Rich. Happy now *L*)
Stage 4: Pass a ton pf green laws, raise energy prices, and destroy the economy of this country costing thousands of folks their jobs which of course, go to foreign countries like China that do not have all those green laws. Heck, give the Chinese a good laugh. They must not mind the climate as they're all buying up expensive homes in hot parts of our country with our money.
Stage 5: Cry your eyes out when you finally realize how you've managed to do the anatomically impossible. You've screwed yourself *L* And all for nothing because I myself think most likely its that changes in the planets surface cause by man, not just carbon emissions that cause the increased heat. Asphalt, concrete ,homes deforestation, desertification, farming and ranching etc change the way the earth's surface absorbs or reflects heat....Mel
PS: As I've also said before, when I took all my weather and climate courses in college back in the late 60's, every prof in the department was saying we were heading into global cooling in about 30-40 years, which is, guess what, now. Guess what, climate cycles and what controls them are, despite all our science, still pretty much guesswork. Just an opportunity for profs to take sides and write a new book on the subject. If the cycles did not change there would be nothing for them to theorize and write about after all. However, in the long run, Granny Clampett's weather beetle would do just about as well at predicting what's gonna happen *L*
Besides, as I've said, I'm a heat junkie and hate cold. My home is at 2000 feet elevation. Plus I've got no children and I'm old and like my gas guzzling jeep and cheap energy *L*. Like I said, something else will crash the human population long before any global warming does so IMHO it's not worth my worrying about it.
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Post by parfive on Dec 4, 2012 1:00:49 GMT -5
Guess we didn’t burn enough o’ Texas last year, huh? ;D
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Post by helens on Dec 4, 2012 1:18:09 GMT -5
Oh gosh, this is so fun to read when not participating:). LOL! I disagree with most of your points Mel, but I'm only going to rebutt 1 because I think the others already got you on the others. China is COMPLETELY BONKERS about Green laws now... starting in 2005 (note this 2005 article): www.csmonitor.com/2005/0210/p01s02-woap.htmlThey are growing too fast... but I recall reading an article last year about how China is actually EXECUTING industrial polluters... as in firing squad. I can't find the article now, but they arrested the officers of some small industial company that polluted a river and killed all the fish, summarily tried and executed all of them as an 'example' to corporations that flout China's environmental laws. I think you may not have heard about this because they haven't gotten to Apple's factories yet. When they get around to executing Apple's China factory executives, I'm sure we'll all read about it. They don't have our long tradition of a judicial system, so their enforcement is a mess, but they are in the process of putting in the most draconian anti-pollution the world's ever seen. Unlike the EPA which give warnings, China's way of dealing with it is to haul the offending corporate officers off for execution... depending on how many bribes they paid of course. But even the bribes won't stop their 'solution' when they figure out what the standards are going to be. And they are going bananas buying up green technology too: www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2012-02/02/content_14521630.htm
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Post by Rockoonz on Dec 4, 2012 1:45:23 GMT -5
And China will execute a few people tomorrow too. Why? Because it's Tuesday.
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Post by parfive on Dec 4, 2012 2:09:05 GMT -5
Richard Lindzen, no less ;D, writing for Cato in 1992: “Indeed, the global cooling trend of the 1950s and 1960s led to a minor global cooling hysteria in the 1970s. . . But the scientific community never took the issue to heart, governments ignored it, and with rising global temperatures in the late 1970s the issue more or less died. In the meantime, model calculations--especially at the Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory at Princeton--continued to predict substantial warming due to increasing carbon dioxide.” Hermann Flohn, 1975: “...the probability of a transition to the type of climate leading to an ice age in the next 100y is less that 1%, but that the possibility of large-scale human interference with the climatic system is much larger. It is a question of how much man contributes to the state of the climate we have. If one deals with the matter from the viewpoint of energetics one comes to the result that the sum of man-made interference with this system is of the order of 10% of the energy which is converted in the climatic fluctuations we have experienced in the last 100 or 200 y. The sum of these man-made effects (perhaps this is a controversial matter) should tend, generally speaking, to warming of the atmosphere... Now if we allow man's interference with climate to increase exponentially as it has done in recent years, we sooner or later come to a stage where this 10% rises to 100% resulting in continuous warming ... this would be a really dangerous situation ... My feeling is that if man's interference with the climatic system is uncontrolled for some decades, together with uncontrolled growth of energy use, sooner or later during the next century the warming will overwhelm natural factors which usually produce cooling.” Mel: “Besides . . . I’m old . . . it's not worth my worrying about it.”
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,487
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Post by Sabre52 on Dec 4, 2012 9:43:40 GMT -5
Rich: Exactly. I worry about things that our incompetent Prez will do to us tomorrow, not what might occur in thirty years when I'll most likely be dead anyway. Re: your quotes and the included scientific opinions. Opinions are like aholes, Every scientist has has one and they are guided by where the scientist gets his income more than by a quest for the truth.
Helen: My brother in law was in the business of selling trains to China and spent a lot of time there. He describes them as being where we were back in the fifties. You remember when families all had a one car garage and a single car back in the fifties? The trains he sold were for car transportation. The Chinese are just discovering the automobile and there are a lot of Chinese. Any carbon emissions we cut, they'll more than make up for in the near future. And Heck yeah they execute polluters. They execute a lot of criminals. Sounds like a great idea to me too. I rather doubt they'll pass laws that will injure their own economy though, like we do.
We just had a cave spider no one even new existed stop a freeway expansion here in Texas so they can study it to see it's effect on man. Heck, it has no effect as no one even knew it was there. We have oil and gas lands that might be put off limits because of the Prairie Chicken. We had farmers in California have their water cut off because of a smelt with no commercial value. I think the Chinese understand people first more than we do and that's while they'll succeed while we fail.
Rich: Fires burn everywhere not just Texas. They are also a natural process and put lots of carbon in the air. In Amerind times half the western part of the country burnt off every year. Again, you're not making any real point......Mel
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Post by parfive on Dec 4, 2012 10:10:18 GMT -5
“Heck, it has no effect as no one even knew it was there.” And you think you’re the logical one, eh? ;D Amazin’ how many 100-year storms and 500-year floods one person - not named Methuselah - can enjoy these days.
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itsandbits
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since March 2012
Posts: 825
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Post by itsandbits on Dec 4, 2012 12:25:36 GMT -5
I am not denying anything about the earths natural cycles or calamities that have and will effect it or ignoring them; they are a fact. It is also a fact though that we are pillaging it's resources for short term monetary gain and are going to leave a poisoned and spent planet in our wake. This is what bothers me. I'm not blaming any person of course but to deny this fact, or bury it under BS, or say; oh well, a better world awaits me, is to deny our responsibilities to future generations. Noone that will take the time to look around them can honestly say we have not done this. We have put ourselves in the unenviable position of having to save ourselves from ourselves and no amount of firepower or bluster is going to do anything. Maybe it will hasten the end but if survival of us as a viable species is the aim, we need to wake up. Do you have any thought as to how much energy it will take to reclaim all the most usable farmland we have buried in concrete and asphalt. We may as well have locked it away in a vault when things go sideways. I don't believe in any "better world" but I do believe that a lot of us; no-one on this forum of course, are going to come back as part of dung beetles :<)
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Post by texaswoodie on Dec 4, 2012 13:18:36 GMT -5
Yeah, you can tell we are in serious trouble by how many houses, SUV's, and airplanes Gore owns. It's the OTHER guys that need to cut back.
Curt
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chassroc
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Post by chassroc on Dec 4, 2012 13:32:17 GMT -5
Lots of fun listening to the those who claim they know more than the scientists. I dare say they are not the only ones who know that there are natural warming and cooling cycles. The current rate of warming is what is alarming. This rate of change is what leads one to believe we might have a hand in climate change. We certainly do know the extreme intensity of storms and drought is unprecedented in our lifetime. It seems to get more extreme every year. I don't know any more than you about whether this is a "natural" thing. But I'd let the Scientific community examine the facts without the hysteria.
Lots of fun listening to the those who point to some obscure studies in the 70s and think that everyone was pointing to an Ice Age. I lived through that era, some articles in popular mags with provocative titles asking if there was a coming Ice_age. Most were quickly and vehemently debunked.
Lots of fun listening those who deny global warming because it is espoused by Al Gore. Al is in a position where he gets little love from anyone, but he's got a pretty good head for a smug guy, and just because you don't like him, or he has a big estate does not mean he is wrong about global warning. Doesn't make him right either, but why don't you just subtract him from the decision and make it easier to come to a logical conclusion.
I think it was Todd who said something like, I believe in Global Warming but I don't believe we can do anything about it. That is a realistic response. This is a hard, complex problem that cannot be solved easily or unilaterally.
I like making some investment in ways to combat CO2 and man made sources of global warming. Here in the east, we've always been the beneficiaries of Midwest coal particulates and emissions; we'd rather not be. I also don't believe you throw in the towel just because a problem is complex and seems impossible to solve. You break it down into solvable parts and attack what you can, when you can.
The USA is riding a new age of finding large amounts of oil and gas, but nothing lasts forever. Let's enjoy it while we can, but don't forget we had more oil than any other country before, but those deposits dwindled before the current glut of shale could be tackled by science. At some point our shale deposits and Canada's Tar Sands will become uneconomical.
I
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Post by helens on Dec 4, 2012 14:44:22 GMT -5
My point about China was that they ARE going Green. And how do you figure that China puts 'people' ahead of anything? People is the one thing China has not minded expending over the last 2000 years, intentionally burying them alive in walls and tombs to provide beneficent spirits, shooting people at train crossings for crimes that we wouldn't even sentence for, throwing them by the tens of thousands holding farm tools at 3 man US machine gun batteries during Korea. People are not more important than Nation, that's been the case for 6000 years of Chinese history. There's no indication the Chinese Gov't has decided to value people any more today than they ever did, their entire culture and history is about individual sacrifice for the common good. They have put in DRACONIAN EPA laws now... it's only a matter of enforcement. Their idea of enforcement is a whole lot worse than our idea of enforcement. If you read the 2 articles I linked, they completely stopped building multi-billion dollar projects to study the environmental impact of them. They SQUASHED US Solar energy companies, because they suddenly got interested in solar, and threw money at it. They are now putting scrubbers and air cleaners on every single coal plant they can find, and hunting down environmental polluters... and putting some corporate heads to firing squads. I recall reading that a license plate for a new car in Shanghai is $10,000, and must be bought via lottery. Yet, just because their population is so HUGE, cars alone will create a bigger and bigger problem for them (and the rest of us), one so big, everything they do is like sticking a finger in a dam. But I suspect, given their history, that their EPA is ALREADY worse than the US's. As far as I know, we have never stopped construction of a multi-billion dollar project midstream to study environmental impact... we do it BEFORE they are started, but once started, we let them go. They have no qualms about stopping anything at any point, any time, to check it. And if you read the 2nd article... they are partnering with Germany to lead the world in Green energy... and if they succeed, that'll be yet something else we will play catch up on. This exerpt is from China's paper: "China's 12th Five-Year Plan (2011-2015) paves the way to a low-carbon economy whose objectives are to improve energy efficiency, reduce overall energy consumption and emissions as well as promote green and environmentally sound technologies. Germany and China are partners in this important transition with greater potential to improve bilateral cooperation, especially in regards to clean and environmentally sound technologies, such as on- and offshore wind parks, solar technology, electric and hybrid automobiles. Germany, as a global market leader in environmental and energy efficient technologies with a world market share of 16-18 percent - approximately 225 million euros ($288 million) a year - and China with its huge market are bound to be mutually beneficial. Germany already offers its expertise through various programs that address environmental management, such as training for mayors or supporting Chinese emissions trading pilot schemes. Both countries can work on challenges like setting up smart grids and energy storage facilities. Besides practical bilateral cooperation, international challenges should be addressed. Germany and China can be the avant-garde in the next phase of designing a new global climate regime with Germany representing industrialized countries and China standing on behalf of emerging economies." First of all, anyone who knows what a 'Five Year Plan' is for China, knows that they will move heaven and earth to accomplish it, no matter how many people they kill to do it. Those words are scary, coming from the Chinese. Their new '5 Year Plan' is about Green Energy. Our EPA has hardly any teeth, that isn't true for any Chinese state agency if they decide that the issue is important. It's now a 5 year plan, it's important. When they go all Green, and we are still reliant on fossil fuels, to throttle us, all they have to do is cut off our fossil fuel supply. And you think we DO NOT need to expand our Green energy so we can keep greedy oil industries making record profits? Everyone is arguing about our future with the fossil fuel pollution (rightfully), but there's other considerations too, political and miiitary, that will impact us not just worldwide, but as a nation. Not to mention that we are STILL beholden, and thus stuck to, the Middle East and their messes. It would be nice to be free of that entire Middle East yoke, no? We need to get off our oil crack, the sooner the better.
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bushmanbilly
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2008
Posts: 4,719
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Post by bushmanbilly on Dec 4, 2012 15:06:08 GMT -5
I like making some investment in ways to combat CO2 and man made sources of global warming.
Rumor has it that trees and crops love it. So the logical thing to do is when mother nature wipes out your shorelines. Rebuild with vegetation not mansions. Save money and the planet. As for Al Gorep, if he walked his talk. People might respect him more. But when setting a company up that profits from carbon credits. Kinda makes him look like he just wants to get richer not greener.
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Post by texaswoodie on Dec 4, 2012 15:08:51 GMT -5
Lots of fun listening to the those who claim they know more than the scientists. I dare say they are not the only ones who know that there are natural warming and cooling cycles. The current rate of warming is what is alarming. This rate of change is what leads one to believe we might have a hand in climate change. We certainly do know the extreme intensity of storms and drought is unprecedented in our lifetime. It seems to get more extreme every year. I don't know any more than you about whether this is a "natural" thing. But I'd let the Scientific community examine the facts without the hysteria. Lots of fun listening to the those who point to some obscure studies in the 70s and think that everyone was pointing to an Ice Age. I lived through that era, some articles in popular mags with provocative titles asking if there was a coming Ice_age. Most were quickly and vehemently debunked. Lots of fun listening those who deny global warming because it is espoused by Al Gore. Al is in a position where he gets little love from anyone, but he's got a pretty good head for a smug guy, and just because you don't like him, or he has a big estate does not mean he is wrong about global warning. Doesn't make him right either, but why don't you just subtract him from the decision and make it easier to come to a logical conclusion. I think it was Todd who said something like, I believe in Global Warming but I don't believe we can do anything about it. That is a realistic response. This is a hard, complex problem that cannot be solved easily or unilaterally. I like making some investment in ways to combat CO2 and man made sources of global warming. Here in the east, we've always been the beneficiaries of Midwest coal particulates and emissions; we'd rather not be. I also don't believe you throw in the towel just because a problem is complex and seems impossible to solve. You break it down into solvable parts and attack what you can, when you can. The USA is riding a new age of finding large amounts of oil and gas, but nothing lasts forever. Let's enjoy it while we can, but don't forget we had more oil than any other country before, but those deposits dwindled before the current glut of shale could be tackled by science. At some point our shale deposits and Canada's Tar Sands will become uneconomical. I Really Charlie. Leave out the Lord of Global Warming? How can that be done? He goes to speaking events in a private plane, making millions, telling everyone else how we should cut back. "It's the poor that should cut back, not the ones that can afford to" Well, Mr. Gore can kiss my rusty old @$$. Curt
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bushmanbilly
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Member since October 2008
Posts: 4,719
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Post by bushmanbilly on Dec 4, 2012 15:36:20 GMT -5
When they go all Green, and we are still reliant on fossil fuels, to throttle us, all they have to do is cut off our fossil fuel supply
Pisst, wanna buy a pipeline. ;D Geez didn't know that the US imports oil from China.
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Post by helens on Dec 4, 2012 15:46:15 GMT -5
We don't, but at the rate they are taking over the Seas, in 15 years, they just blockade the tankers out of the Middle East and choke it at Hormuz as an ally of Iran if they want to.
We need to rely less on oil, which means we need to fund our research into alternatives NOW.
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Dec 4, 2012 16:00:10 GMT -5
We don't, but at the rate they are taking over the Seas, in 15 years, they just blockade the tankers out of the Middle East and choke it at Hormuz as an ally of Iran if they want to. We need to rely less on oil, which means we need to fund our research into alternatives NOW. If your so worried about that. Why do you keep crapping on Canadian oil? Pretty tough to block a pipeline in the center of the continent. I don't understand how you think it is safer to transport oil on water.
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Sabre52
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Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,487
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Post by Sabre52 on Dec 4, 2012 16:39:22 GMT -5
*L* That quote was regarding the cave spider Rich, not climate issues *L*. The species was newly discovered because it lives in a cave and no one knew it was there before discovery so what possible significance could it have to man if man never even contacts it. Seems perfectly logical to me.
*L* You don't have to show me Texas charts Rich, I live here. Plus your chart as cool as it looks, shows only a few degrees temperature spread which for Texas is nothing. 2011 was a bit hotter than normal and dry. 2012 has wonderfully mild and pretty wet. Best wildflowers since we've been here. 2007 just before I moved here, was pretty much a flood year ( we got hit by a hurricane) 2010 was colder than hell and I did not like that winter. 2008-9 were just eh. Going way back Texas weather is said to be characterized by floods broken by periods of drought. The state has always been famous for wild weather swings. You do realize your stupid chart shows only ten degree differential and Texas get's hurricanes right? And Texas is huge and gets highly localized storms right *L* Cr*p we hardly notice a 10 degree difference and on most years on your chart varies only a couple of degrees. Sheesh again what's your point? We like big rain storms in Texas. Hell, we pray for big rain storms *L*. Where are these hundred and 500 year storms on your chart anyway? Shoot, the rain your chart shows is just a good summer thundershower in Texas and most all our rain is in the summer...Mel
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