Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,487
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Post by Sabre52 on Dec 4, 2012 16:50:02 GMT -5
OK Helen I misspoke when I said they put people first. Meant to say they put the economy first. Also, they have all our money. They can afford to invest in every form of energy while we cannot.
Charlie: Man is changing the surface of the planet. Of course we have a bit of a hand in the rate of climate change, we're denuding and paving the planet. I would just say that fossil fuels and CO2 emissions are only a small part of it and not the great evil that some scientists say. It's just the popular thing to say, flavor of the day science, all the while ignoring the issues caused by man's ever expanding population and environmental footprint....Mel
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Post by parfive on Dec 4, 2012 19:42:16 GMT -5
“You do realize your stupid chart shows only ten degree differential . . . Cr*p we hardly notice a 10 degree difference and on most years on your chart varies only a couple of degrees . . . ” Actually, Mel, last year (that summer) looks like it was only about four or five degrees above normal. But I seem to recall a whole buncha squawkin’ about those paltry few degrees, never mind the $7 billion hit to agriculture.
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itsandbits
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since March 2012
Posts: 825
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Post by itsandbits on Dec 4, 2012 20:05:22 GMT -5
Maybe someone with bewtter math skills than me can do an estimate of the amount of energy it would take to rais ethe temperature just 1 degreeNow apply the laws of conservation to it and think about the storms, in the form of typhoons, tornados, hurricanes, blizzards, and such that will be above average and more frequent. Oh look, here's another example of a historic storm that happened today. www.bangkokpost.com/news/asia/324516/fears-of-more-deaths-in-typhoon-hit-philippines
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Post by cpdad on Dec 4, 2012 21:25:25 GMT -5
yaw aint got nothing to worry about....we still eating chickens ;D....pickled pigs feet ;D....got a cow or 2 that made some steaks ;D....even though the lake is so low don't wanna boat in it so much....we catch plenty of fish.....those fried fish still make a big ol terds....we aint hungry ;D. it got super low [the lake] back in the 90's.....but filled back up...we caught more fish to make more terds....it was global warming. we thought our fish was going away ;D....our deer would have no water to drink....our lake was drying up....sky was falling....oh lord...whats next....lake filled back up ;D....oh the deer kinda liked it....like they ever went away . me likes stuff that will make a terd. once again some posts are to long and crazy to read ;D....kev.
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Post by parfive on Dec 4, 2012 21:33:25 GMT -5
Itsandbits – The planet is currently building up heat at the rate of ~3 Hiroshima bombs per second.
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Post by parfive on Dec 4, 2012 21:35:57 GMT -5
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Post by helens on Dec 4, 2012 21:43:11 GMT -5
We don't, but at the rate they are taking over the Seas, in 15 years, they just blockade the tankers out of the Middle East and choke it at Hormuz as an ally of Iran if they want to. We need to rely less on oil, which means we need to fund our research into alternatives NOW. If your so worried about that. Why do you keep crapping on Canadian oil? Pretty tough to block a pipeline in the center of the continent. I don't understand how you think it is safer to transport oil on water. I don't crap on Canadian oil, I crap on a pipeline that will pollute it's way across the entire continent of the USA. If I didn't happen to live in the state that was most impacted by the Gulf oil spill and SAW what it DID to one of the most beautiful and pristine bodies of water on Earth, you know, where a lot of people used to get their seaFOOD from, maybe I would be oblivious too. But after seeing it, are you kidding me? THIS: Looked like THIS the week before: And people who swam it it got THIS: Gulf Coast beaches were ALWAYS in the Top 10 Beaches on Earth. Snow white sugar sand that squeaked when you walked on it, the most incredible green water that looked like Margaritas, the bluest azure skies you can't find in a stone. And now it's dead and will be for decades more. And you want that in people's drinking water? Even if it's not MY drinking water, it's just wrong. Wind and Solar and Fuelcells do not have that effect, EVER. So they aren't in place yet, when will we be ready? When ALL our beaches, rivers and drinking water look like the Gulf?
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,487
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Post by Sabre52 on Dec 4, 2012 21:50:24 GMT -5
Rich *L* Worked with framers and ranchers for 30 years. Someone somewhere always has a problem with the weather. That's just the way it is *L* Its and bits: Actually, if you check, this last year was a less active major storm season than usual. National Hurricane center has a chart going back to mid 1800's. Looking at the chart major storms (cat 3 and above) are all over the place don't correlate with so called man made global warming. Same with hurricanes of any size. Slight increase in named tropical storms in the last few years but I read somewhere not this year. Heck, once again lots of them are beneficial for crops in some areas and bad in others. Global warming is occurring but you can't really blame it for weather events even though some Gorebots would have you think so. Go to www.nhc.noaa.gov/climo/ and click on named storms by year for the chart.....Mel
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,487
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Post by Sabre52 on Dec 4, 2012 22:00:13 GMT -5
Helen: great pics. Did you ever count the dead birds beneath wind machines or electric power lines or have to rehab the crippled ones? Everything man does or has done in the name of survival of his species has it's cost in animal lives and environmental damage. We need the resources we need and getting those resources always comes with an element of risk and a cost to the planet. Impossible not to have screw ups unless we decide to just all die off cause man is not perfect. That's also just the way it is *sigh*..Mel
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Post by helens on Dec 4, 2012 22:33:13 GMT -5
Helen: great pics. Did you ever count the dead birds beneath wind machines or electric power lines or have to rehab the crippled ones? Everything man does or has done in the name of survival of his species has it's cost in animal lives and environmental damage. We need the resources we need and getting those resources always comes with an element of risk and a cost to the planet. Impossible not to have screw ups unless we decide to just all die off cause man is not perfect. That's also just the way it is *sigh*..Mel I have great sympathy for dead birds. I have sympathy for dead birds that land on live power lines too. But I have more sympathy for the people that will end up DRINKING that water in case of a spill. Children do not run into wind machines, and they can't cause mutant human babies either. But who says we have to use wind machines? If we had the funding for R&D... if we TOOK the subsidies from oil companies, the billions upon billions of subsidies they get for corporate welfare, and applied it to raw research into alternatives, who says we can't come up with something better than anything in existence today? But we can't fund research anymore can we? Because the Republicans have to pay back the oil companies for their propaganda campaign help. And... odds are good that Billy's pipeline will get built anyway... right across people's drinking water.
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Post by parfive on Dec 4, 2012 22:49:33 GMT -5
“Slight increase in named tropical storms in the last few years but I read somewhere not this year.” You read somewhere? Something wrong with NHC? ;D You know, the outfit you just linked to? ;D ;D FOR THE 2012 ATLANTIC SEASON... 19 NAMED STORMS FORMED [’66-’09 avg 11.3]...OF WHICH 10 BECAME HURRICANES. [’66-’09 avg 6.2]ACTIVITY FOR 2012 WAS WELL ABOVE THE 30-YEAR (1981-2010) AVERAGE FOR NAMED STORMS AND HURRICANESTHE 1981-2010 SEASONAL AVERAGES FOR THE ATLANTIC BASIN ARE 12 NAMED STORMS...6 HURRICANES AND 3 MAJOR HURRICANES. IN TERMS OF ACCUMULATED CYCLONE ENERGY...WHICH MEASURES THE COMBINED STRENGTH AND DURATION OF TROPICAL STORMS AND HURRICANES...TROPICAL CYCLONE ACTIVITY IN THE ATLANTIC BASIN DURING 2012 WAS ABOUT 40 PERCENT ABOVE THE 1981-2010 MEDIAN.
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Post by parfive on Dec 4, 2012 23:42:48 GMT -5
AlGore was ten years old.
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,487
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Post by Sabre52 on Dec 5, 2012 0:11:11 GMT -5
Dang Rich, you are absolutely correct. I apologize profusely. Got absorbed in the chart and thought I had read somewhere else that 2012 was not all that active. I know 2011 was active. Guess I should have checked all the years not covered in the chart too. Oh well. I guess you get to be right once in awhile at least *L*
Helen: I too wish there were magic solutions to all our energy problems and I don't like subsidies of any kind. I wish wind were not intermittent requiring fossil fuel backup. I wish wind farms did not kill birds and were not noisy eyesores that take up a ton of real estate. I wish solar was actually clean energy. Unfortunately it involves mining and processing silicon, cadmium, lead, and mercury. manufacturing plastics and uses tons of energy in manufacturing and processing. So much so some have said it's actually pretty dirty energy on a par with fossil fuels. Solar is pretty expensive too. I think I read all that in Scientific American but I'm sure Rich will check it. I don't have time right now. Maybe some sci-fi writer will give someone an idea that works but until then, I figure we're stuck because we have energy needs we have to fill. Nobody likes nukes, no one allows hydroelectric dams anymore so I really don't have a good answer. Hell, while I'm at it I wish the country was not bankrupt and Obama not president too *L*...Mel
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Post by helens on Dec 5, 2012 0:32:30 GMT -5
That's WHY we want to fund alternative energy Mel. Not only would it benefit our future, it provides jobs for our graduates, particularly in the fields of science and engineering... who are moving wholesale to China now... in many cases ILLEGALLY, because that's where they can find work to pay back their crippling student loans.
There was a time, not that long ago, when the US was THE PLACE for the smartest to want to go to. US industries and research got THE BEST in the whole world to choose from... that's WHY we advanced, that's WHY we could send men to the moon, that's HOW we could develop ideas like solar power, computers, the internet in the first place.
Today, CHINA is where many of our students are going. Kids out of MIT are buying one way plane tickets because there are no jobs, and going to China to work as teachers or anything they can do, risking arrest and deportation. AMERICAN kids with 8 year degrees. No one but Mexicans want to come here, and now Mexico has a 5% unemployment rate and they don't come anymore either.
This started when? Under Obama? It started well before that. We had a balanced budget under Clinton. So it's not Bush's fault... what happened? There are many reasons, but it started when taxes were cut for offshoring US jobs and basing US corporations in Bermuda corporations. THAT happened under Bush. Since then, company after US company moved... taking the jobs with them. That's AFTER their tax rates were dropped... because they got dropped EVEN MORE for moving offshore.
How do you bring that BACK? HOW? There IS a solution. It's a simple solution. Bring Jobs back to America Act. The one that the Republicans shot down. And FUND RESEARCH. HIRE US Scientists, our kids that are overseas will come home. And when we develop the answer, we fund THAT til we are #1 in the world again.
That's the Apple turnaround from near bankruptcy. SPENDING MONEY, rehiring Steve Jobs that they FIRED when they wanted to 'save money', til they almost bankrupted Apple. SPEND on Research. Invent an IPhone and an IPad in the Green Energy field. Then BUILD IT. That's what Americans do best in the world... INVENT things, make them happen from nothing. You don't cut til the last thing you can cut is your own throat.
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Post by parfive on Dec 5, 2012 1:31:47 GMT -5
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,487
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Post by Sabre52 on Dec 5, 2012 12:30:04 GMT -5
Rich: Yep, a lot from your compass direction too *L*. We do have a huge number of wind farms but some investors seem to be backing away from them now. They are ugly things and have some pretty high maintenance costs associated with them. I haven't heard why some investors are losing interest. Ranchers like them because it's a way to make money from marginal range land. Their locations are causing a lot of backlash due to all the new powerlines that have to be constructed to distribute the power to the big cities. Our ranch just dropped like 150K in legal fees and such to stop a line from going through the middle of our place and now the city of Kerrville is fighting it. Scenic beauty is very important for tourism here in the hill country and again those big lines are very ugly so most folks have the "not in my backyard" attitude just like with nuke plants......Mel
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Post by parfive on Dec 5, 2012 13:13:16 GMT -5
Small price to pay. ;D Hell, Texas still had what, about 18 new coal plants on the drawing board until recently.
Cheaper gas not solely responsible.
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itsandbits
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since March 2012
Posts: 825
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Post by itsandbits on Dec 5, 2012 16:21:12 GMT -5
Itsandbits – The planet is currently building up heat at the rate of ~3 Hiroshima bombs per second. and unfortunately, that is in spite of the oceans; which basically regulate the external heat of the whole planet and atmosphere, storing all the energy they can, buried deep down where it takes 1200 years to circulate. So the future may be bright but probably from all the fires.
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Don
Cave Dweller
He wants you too, Malachi.
Member since December 2009
Posts: 2,616
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Post by Don on Dec 5, 2012 17:37:30 GMT -5
Global warming and climate change are just another device used to part people from their money. P.T. Barnum said it best.
Weather changes. Climate changes. If you think there's a damn thing we can do about it, give me a call because I have a bridge to sell you.
If driving your Prius makes you feel better about it, more power to you. Toyota thanks you.
I live in what is currently a desert. I collect petrified wood from a time when the desert was a tropical forest. Pulled crinoid stems, trilobites, cephalopods, ammonites, baculites and coral fossils out of shale deposited when the desert was an ocean. If the history of the Earth has taught us anything, it has taught us that nothing is constant; and the world is always in a state of change.
Politicians and other agenda driven people use this fact as a boogieman to make themselves and their special interests wealthy.
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,487
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Post by Sabre52 on Dec 5, 2012 21:46:02 GMT -5
Rich, we're in an electrical co op and I've got to admit, I don't know where we get power from, wind, coal or natural gas. Think the co op just buys from where ever it's cheapest. I do know we have incredibly cheap power compared to where I used to live in California. Here we have two monster heat pump units and maximum bills are maybe $225 and normal bills in the $125-150 range so that tickles me pink. House and shop are all electric too. No gas at all...Mel
Helen: what alternative energy are you wanting to fund? Just curious because I thought most all of them have been tried in recent years.
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