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Post by mohs on Apr 21, 2013 19:14:27 GMT -5
So if you were the nurse Bushman and this punk rung the bell you would respond with a
--What's wrong? I need something for this excruciating pain. O I'm sorry. Now I need to get back to my tumbler-- mostly
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Post by helens on Apr 21, 2013 19:39:29 GMT -5
No no no. He's got to be in good health to be properly waterboarded.
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Apr 21, 2013 19:40:21 GMT -5
So if you were the nurse Bushman and this punk rung the bell you would respond with a --What's wrong? I need something for this excruciating pain. O I'm sorry. Now I need to get back to my tumbler-- mostly Lmao Ed. Yes I would answer. But, I would come in dressed like this. Then I would carefully explain to him that due to the excessive demand for painkillers. Due to the excessive trauma cases that came in the week. We are are running low. I hope you understand our situation. But we do have a top notch medical team waiting for you. I bet they have some nice trees in Boston.
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Post by susand24224 on Apr 21, 2013 19:41:15 GMT -5
Toad, there is nothing in our criminal jurisprudence that requires the reading of Miranda warnings. Rather, if they are not read, any statement that a person makes cannot be used against him or her in court in a prosecution. (There are certain exceptions not relevant here.)
I am not aware of any "national security" exception, but I am no expert in areas of national security--certainly Miranda v. Arizona provides no exceptions.
But it still makes sense. It could be that the special agents are more concerned about finding out detailed information about other possible bombs, for example, than they are about using this young man's statements made to them against him. They've already got him (I think) shooting a police officer, and he's already confessed. Convicting him of four murders likely will produce no harsher punishment than convicting him of one. In addition, they may feel they have enough to convict him of the entire shebang without using any statements he may make to them without benefit of Miranda warnings. I am quite sure that the FBI knows considerably more than we are being told, to say nothing of ATF's involvement. The FBI has jurisdiction over domestic terrorism, but not over foreign terrorism. ATF likewise will claim jurisdiction because of the bombs. The two agencies have been fighting over this for years, and at least from what we are told in the media, the FBI is winning.
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Post by mohs on Apr 21, 2013 20:06:44 GMT -5
Dr Kermit to emergency ! We have a punk kid in excruciating pain that wants to see a tumbled stone!
STAT!
mohs
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Post by helens on Apr 21, 2013 20:10:21 GMT -5
I'm no legal expert like you are Susan, I actually never heard of the 'national security' exception, but it's all over the news... so I guess it's the loophole:).
Nevertheless, he shouldn't be allowed to keep silent. There is way too much at stake both domestic and internationally. WAS he part of a greater conspiracy? What else were they going to bomb (because there was every indication they had more planned)? Letting him die without answers, or letting him remain silent should not be an option... and I think most of the Gov't agrees, even if the ACLU must protest for legalities sake.
The other reason is that we don't want other idiots to follow in their footsteps. We have justified so much inhumanity already, I think this one is warranted.
I keep thinking about that boy with his legs blown off in the news photos... if that were my son... the torture I could justify on him would be almost unbelievable.
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Post by Toad on Apr 21, 2013 22:13:19 GMT -5
Was the young one a citizen or the old one? If the young one, how can he arrested in America for crimes committed in America and not be read his rights? If he's not a citizen, moot point... Toad, if your question was directed at wanting to give him Miranda rights, despite what he did (yes, he's a citizen, who grew up in the US)... that's more Democrat than the Democrats, and incredibly unRepublican, since the Republicans want him held as an enemy combatant (and subject to the full range of torture). I guess I'm worried about the whole slippery slope thing. If they can limit his rights based on something he did, how long is it before they are limiting Americans rights for something they said or thought? Just thinking down the road. He needs to be put away forever based on the bombing and killing a police officer etc... But if we start limiting rights now, where does it lead. I need to think on it more. Unfortunately I don't know much about the law...
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Post by susand24224 on Apr 21, 2013 23:37:36 GMT -5
I agree 100% with Toad. This is one we can all pretty much agree on--but what about the next one that is not so clear cut? And the scariest thought of all is *who* makes the decision of when constitutional rights should be suspended? I do not trust that decision to many FBI agents I have worked with and against. Some, yes, many, no. Each law enforcement officer has his or her own agenda.
Again, there is *never* a Miranda Warning "obligation."
Failure to give Miranda warnings simply means that statements made during *custodial* questioning cannot be used against him in a criminal trial against him. Period. It does not mean that he cannot be prosecuted. It does not mean they have to let him go. He can be held indefinitely as a national security threat, just as we are currently doing with many, many people at Guantanamo Bay. He likely can be convicted without using any custodial statements; he hasn't made any yet, and obviously most people are already convinced he is guilty, myself included. The only hesitance I have is that the media has kept referencing "they" and I don't know how much of the "they" is attributable to this young man and how much is attributable to his brother, or both. Although I loathe the notion of guilt by association, it appears that there is considerably more than just association here.
If the media is calling this a "national security exception" to Miranda Warnings, they are mixing apples and oranges, but that's not at all unusual for the media.
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Post by Toad on Apr 21, 2013 23:46:59 GMT -5
Thanks again for the clarification, Susan.
I guess we'll all see how it plays out. I just hope these two knuckleheads were acting alone...
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Post by jakesrocks on Apr 21, 2013 23:59:49 GMT -5
Acting alone ? Well, lets see now. The older brother drove a Mercedes, was a sharp dresser, had a wife and kid to support and could afford a 6 month overseas trip. Yet he didn't have a job. Where was the money coming from to support his life style ? And the younger brother was attending a very expensive college, with only an occasional menial job. Where was his money coming from ? It's going to be interesting to see where the money trail leads us.
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Post by Toad on Apr 22, 2013 0:04:33 GMT -5
Come on, Don. Let me live in my little wishful thinking world for a little while longer...
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Post by Toad on Apr 22, 2013 12:58:34 GMT -5
As of now he will be tried as a citizen. Good - that brings treason into play, yes?
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Post by jakesrocks on Apr 22, 2013 13:06:24 GMT -5
Pray for public hangings for these creeps .
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Apr 22, 2013 13:15:13 GMT -5
Pray for public hangings for these creeps . One can only hope and pray Don. But I have a feeling that people like this will grab this case.
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Post by mohs on Apr 23, 2013 10:35:45 GMT -5
The above makes a good point even if it is a bit flippant. The kid didn’t shit all over America He set off a bomb to kill and maim folks who were attending a sporting event
Will America, once the evidence is sorted, have the will to kill this punk kid? Not sure. Yet, no matter what one may think of American politics or justice system the bull shit of this crime upon innocent spectators should garner empathy & support from all free people. Ed
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Apr 23, 2013 11:05:31 GMT -5
Good point Ed. Remember Ohmar Kaudar, the punk that killed the army medic. There are liberals in Canada that are lobbying for his released from prison. The problem I have is that your and my countries spend billions of dollars to fight these creeps. And then after they are caught we spend millions more keeping them alive. For what? ??
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Post by mohs on Apr 23, 2013 11:27:09 GMT -5
straight forward hard logic is hard to deny bushman!
For what? I suppose its just what a free liberal state/country tries to represent Always looking for the best in humanity or some nonsense like that Me? I call as I see um and with humanity it sort of a head scratching mix bag of nuts That why I concentrate on rock grinding mohstly
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Post by Rockoonz on Apr 23, 2013 20:30:07 GMT -5
So they are trying for an assault on the 4th amendment now??
If you think about it, they put a whole community under unconstitutional matrial law, incompetently didn't find a thing, then when they finally let citizens out of their homes one guy out in his back yard for a smoke did more than the whole bunch.
Lee
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Post by mohs on Apr 23, 2013 21:38:17 GMT -5
there was actually a couple hours during the search that I started rooting for the punk in a sardonic way it all seems so ludicrous and then when they were at the boat it was like pull that damn tarp off and pop that kid
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grayfingers
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Post by grayfingers on Apr 24, 2013 6:43:06 GMT -5
And, to add the proverbial insult to the injury . . . TAXPAYER-FUNDED TERROR Marathon bombings mastermind Tamerlan Tsarnaev was living on taxpayer-funded state welfare benefits even as he was delving deep into the world of radical anti-American Islamism, the Herald has learned. ... In addition, both of Tsarnaev’s parents received benefits, and accused brother bombers Dzhokhar and Tamerlan were recipients through their parents when they were younger, according to the state. bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/2013/04/tamerlan_tsarnaev_got_mass_welfare_benefits
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