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Post by Jugglerguy on Jan 27, 2015 19:23:26 GMT -5
I decided to try something new. I'm trying to tumble a batch of rocks from start to finish using just a Lot-O. Every batch I've ever done before this has been started in a rotary and finished in a vibe. I'm sure that will remain my favorite method, but I just had to try something different. I've read lots on the subject, so I know that it won't round my rocks like a rotary. I'm not sure how to know when the rocks are ready to move on though. In my rotaries, I'm a perfectionist and leave rocks there for months in order to get every last flaw out. I'm not sure that it's possible to remove every last flaw in a vibe though, so I don't know when to stop. I'm tumbling Montana agates, which I think are pretty hard. I have never tumbled a complete batch of them before. Some of these agates had some pretty bad flaws and others were pretty nice. They were almost all very rough. I imagine they would take quite a few months in the first stage in a rotary tumbler. I tend to think that a vibe does as much in a day or two as a rotary does in a week, at least that's the way it works in the last stages. When roughing though, there are at least a couple variables. In a rotary, I'd be going a week at a time with 80 grit. In my Lot-O, I've been going 24 hours with 120/220 grit. So I'm going for less time using finer grit in a machine that works faster. I think I've already gone way beyond what a normal person would do. I'm going to empty it in a few minutes for the 21st time. I've changed grit every day for three weeks. I'm using 2 tablespoons of grit per day, so that's a lot of grit. Most days I've added 1 tablespoon of borax. I've also done some days without borax and some days with 1 teaspoon. I've found that when using borax, I have to add water more often, so it seems to grind faster with borax than without. It doesn't seem to matter much if I use a teaspoon or a tablespoon. For the first week or so I used small beach gravel with the larger Montanas. Then I switched to a mix of small and large ceramics. I didn't notice a difference. Did I mention that I've taken pictures of every rock every day? Day 0  Day 0 by jugglerguy, on Flickr Day 1  Day 1 by jugglerguy, on Flickr Day 7  Day 7 by jugglerguy, on Flickr Day 20  Day 20 by jugglerguy, on Flickr Polished (Day 38)  Untitled by jugglerguy, on Flickr Day 0  Day 0 by jugglerguy, on Flickr Day 1  Day 1 by jugglerguy, on Flickr Day 7  Day 7 by jugglerguy, on Flickr Day 20  Day 20 by jugglerguy, on Flickr Polished:  Untitled by jugglerguy, on Flickr Day 0  Day 0 by jugglerguy, on Flickr Day 1  Day 1 by jugglerguy, on Flickr Day 7  Day 7 by jugglerguy, on Flickr Day 20  Day 20 by jugglerguy, on Flickr Polished:  Untitled by jugglerguy, on Flickr I'm a big believer of not moving rocks on until they're ready. I don't know if these rocks will ever be ready, though. Small pits and spalls that would be removed by a rotary tumbler never seem to go away. Are Montana agates super hard, and this is to be expected? Are vibratory tumblers really bad at removing this stuff? If tumbling rocks in this way, do I just have to be ok with a bunch of imperfections? Is there anything I can do to improve my technique? I'd really love to hear from those of you who tumble with just a vibratory tumbler. |
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 27, 2015 19:31:54 GMT -5
My Viking vibe has a thick liner that allows 90 grit SiC. It says that it will smooth the edges but will not round rocks. It says 'keeps their natural shape'.
Yes, Montana is very hard agate.
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Post by broseph82 on Jan 27, 2015 21:57:41 GMT -5
I've had some pieces in my Lot-O with jagged edges and it just slightly rounded them and didn't take them down like the rotary does.
Good luck. Keep at it for a few months and let us know if checking it every day for months is worth it compared to just once a week.
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Post by Peruano on Jan 27, 2015 22:13:46 GMT -5
I'm blown away by talk of months in a vibe. 3 days per stage max. And adding new grit may be necessary if you want to get out deep pits, but I'm a strong believer in letting the grit degrade and moving to smaller grit without backing it up by adding more coarse. I tumble only with a vibe, but I do a great bit of sawing and some preforming using the cab machine. I also tolerate more imperfections - call them natural beautiful blems, than most folks so don't stay the course like some are tempted to do. I started a batch of pet wood, agates and mixed other stuff today in 90 grit, they will run two days and move to 220, for a day or two depending, and then one each at 500, 800, and Linde A, always with soap and just enough water to keep them from rattling themselves silly in the bowl. I could never wait weeks for the product to be finished. Call me impatient. Tom
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Post by Jugglerguy on Jan 27, 2015 22:18:45 GMT -5
Hey Impatient, other than James' comment above, I've always heard that you can't or shouldn't use 90 grit in a vibe because it is too heavy and it will wear out the bottom of the barrel. What kind of vibe do you have?
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Post by braders on Jan 27, 2015 22:30:43 GMT -5
I'm curious about the 90 as well I'm with juggler I always heard that's a no no and I use the uv18? I have done many batches start to finish in a vib tho and never gone just 3 days per grit so that's new to me as well  It takes a lot of medium and time to get pits out jugglerguy but can be done . |
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 28, 2015 5:29:48 GMT -5
The Viking uses what looks like a polyurethane liner. It is designed for SiC 90. And it is expensive. Polyethylene will wear when using coarse grit.
The instructions are clear on using SiC 90, but they also are clear on the fact that this machine will maintain the rock's natural shape. As if a bonus.
Vibes are coup de gras at putting a great finish down quick, but not so for rounding.
Interesting experiment Rob. 21 cleanout and grit changes. I assume the 120/220 grit is pretty much broken down after 24 hours then.
I can say that SiC 220 is about completely broken down in 24 hours in my vibe. Even running thick sugar slurry of 1 tablespoon per pound.
Just found that out yesterday. I have run both SiC 500 and AO 500 in the vibe, and the SiC 500 seems to break down faster than the AO 500.
SiC may be more brittle.
I run AO 220 and SiC 220 in the vibe also. It seems that the SiC breaks down faster than the AO at the 220 size also.
Have never run less than 220 in the vibe since I do not have 90 or 110 in stock.
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Post by connrock on Jan 28, 2015 9:13:11 GMT -5
If you're a perfectionist you're wasting your time trying to do a load from rough to finish in the Lot-O.
Yes it can be done but think of the time and effort it took to build the Pyramids!
Montana Agate is difficult to do when you use a rotary to rough and it will take you months to get all the flaws out of it in the vibe.
You can rough rocks in the Lot-O if you want the rocks to stay close to natural looking though.
Another problem with doing rocks like Montana Agate from start to finish in a vibe(even if you want the natural look) is that grit WILL get stuck in every flaw and may cause a problem down the line.Washing and burnishing does not get ALL of the grit out no matter how well you think you are cleaning the rocks especially when using the fine grits like 400,500,1000,etc.
The only way to accomplish what you're trying to do is to grind out all of the flaws before you put the rocks in your vibe.
My 2 cents worth,,,
connrock
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Post by Peruano on Jan 28, 2015 9:41:27 GMT -5
I agree with most points made. I think I get away with 90 grit because I only use 2 teaspoons in a 5 lb bowl, and I use enough soap to make a thin frothy slurry that makes sure that the grit moves throughout the entire action of the bowl and does not aggregate in the bottom where it is most likely to erode the bowl. I've only ruined one bowl and that was due to a rock that was too large or heavy getting lodged on the bottom where it ate a hole in the bowl. Not a grit problem but rather operator error. My tumbler is nothing special - the entry level Raytech Vibe 5. I do work with a lot of agate, chert, and Petrified wood so, I need that initial coarse grit to get things moving. I also high grade the load and remove things with obvious bad pits that otherwise would be carriers of coarse grits forward. I'm sure my faster schedule may cost me a bit in ultimate shine, but it works for my expectations. Impatient - I guess. Tom
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 28, 2015 9:51:52 GMT -5
I agree with most points made. I think I get away with 90 grit because I only use 2 teaspoons in a 5 lb bowl, and I use enough soap to make a thin frothy slurry that makes sure that the grit moves throughout the entire action of the bowl and does not aggregate in the bottom where it is most likely to erode the bowl. I've only ruined one bowl and that was due to a rock that was too large or heavy getting lodged on the bottom where it ate a hole in the bowl. Not a grit problem but rather operator error. My tumbler is nothing special - the entry level Raytech Vibe 5. I do work with a lot of agate, chert, and Petrified wood so, I need that initial coarse grit to get things moving. I also high grade the load and remove things with obvious bad pits that otherwise would be carriers of coarse grits forward. I'm sure my faster schedule may cost me a bit in ultimate shine, but it works for my expectations. Impatient - I guess. Tom Good agitation rotation and/or thicker slurry will wipe the hopper of the tumbler clean and keep the grit in circulation. Learned that one. Great point. |
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riverrock
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Post by riverrock on Jan 28, 2015 11:11:45 GMT -5
I put my rough rock in the vib to wear them down faster like you show in your photos then put then in the tumblers at the 60/90 stage.
I was also told not to use 60/90 in the vib. I have never finished any thing just using the vib. looking forward to see the end results.
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Post by gingerkid on Jan 28, 2015 12:37:51 GMT -5
Following your thread with great interest, Jugglerguy, and thanks for sharing each stage/day of your rough vibe tumble. I'm blown away by talk of months in a vibe. 3 days per stage max. And adding new grit may be necessary if you want to get out deep pits, but I'm a strong believer in letting the grit degrade and moving to smaller grit without backing it up by adding more coarse. I tumble only with a vibe, but I do a great bit of sawing and some preforming using the cab machine. I also tolerate more imperfections - call them natural beautiful blems, than most folks so don't stay the course like some are tempted to do. I started a batch of pet wood, agates and mixed other stuff today in 90 grit, they will run two days and move to 220, for a day or two depending, and then one each at 500, 800, and Linde A, always with soap and just enough water to keep them from rattling themselves silly in the bowl. I could never wait weeks for the product to be finished. Call me impatient. Tom ROFL, Peruano. I have a TV-5, too, but haven't placed any rough grit in it. I guess your sawing and preforming of your tumbling rough and using less grit helps hinder damaging your bowl? The noise doesn't drive you bonkers from the tumbler while the rocks are "rattling themselves silly?" I am seriously considering buying another set of tumbler barrels for the AR-2 since the TV-5 is so loud, lol. |
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Post by Jugglerguy on Jan 28, 2015 15:22:14 GMT -5
Thanks for all the input, everyone.
Connrock, I saw your old thread about your experiment with roughing in in the Lot-O, so I knew what I was getting into. I didn't exepct to like the results, but I figured I should try it at least once or twice. I think I'll try unakite next, since I have experience with it, it's softer, and is already beach rounded. I am also very aware of the risks of the holes trapping grit, which is what's bothering me the most.
Peruano, thanks for the clarification on the small amount of grit you use.
Gingerkid, my Lot-O is quite quiet, definitely not as loud as my rotary tumlblers.
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tkvancil
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Post by tkvancil on Jan 28, 2015 16:18:10 GMT -5
Very interesting. I am surprised at the change your pics show in the rocks. I started some Montanas in rotary. Was surprised at how "tough" they are. Grind like a Laker, slow.
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Post by captbob on Jan 28, 2015 16:30:03 GMT -5
I don't really get it. Why can't rocks be shaped in a vibe?
I understand that coarse grit shouldn't be used in a vibe because it will wear away at the bowl quickly.
But, if the bowl is of no concern and you want to shape rocks in a vibe using coarse grit, why wouldn't it work?
This video is from Rocktumbler.com showing a UV-10 in action. The unit gets turned on just past the 2:10 point in the video. It sure looks like the action in the bowl would shape rocks!
So, my question is: other than concern for the bowl, why can't a complete tumble be done in a vibe?
Rob, I know you have a different model vibe tumbler, but is the action in the bowl basically the same, or is the Lot-O less aggressive than this UV-10 seems to be?
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Post by Jugglerguy on Jan 28, 2015 17:13:19 GMT -5
It looks like the UV10 moves a little faster, but the Lot-O has similar action. I've read that the larger grit is too heavy and falls to the bottom.
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Post by captbob on Jan 28, 2015 17:37:53 GMT -5
Use abrasive ceramic media then? The bowl wouldn't approve I'm sure.
Probably an idea not worth pursuing unless you own a vibe tumbler bowl factory!
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 28, 2015 17:41:17 GMT -5
My slurry gets dirty much faster(X2 or X3) using sugar w/water than straight water in SiC 220 stage. I am pretty sure it is cutting the rock faster.
You may try using it or laundry detergent for a cutting lubricant. It also picks up the grit and keeps it off the bottom and spread in the rocks.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Jan 28, 2015 18:04:18 GMT -5
James, that's what I noticed when using borax.
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Post by Peruano on Jan 28, 2015 19:17:23 GMT -5
Not to highjack this thread, but I'll try to post photos tomorrow of my preforms after 48 hrs in the 90 grit. Yes indeed the thicker slurry provided by the soap is probably what prevents or reduces bowl wear. I tried to take a photo of the slurry (about the consistency of whipped cream), but it does not show against mostly brown rocks.  Preforming also aids the process, and if I end up with a pit or so, I often times touch up at the end with the cab machine. Its easier to cab one tiny spot than to do the entire piece. Captbob asks: Why can't the entire tumble be done in a vibe? It can but indeed shapes do not change as radically as the rotary. I think its because the rocks are only moving miniscule amounts as they vibrate as opposed to falling and tumbling like they do in a rotary. If I start with a triangle, I end with a triangle unless there is a soft spot in the rock that causes a point to break off or a major fracture appears that I did not anticipate. Here's a preform local agate at 24 hrs. No saw marks and no rough edges.  This thread is bringing up some good points so lets see where it goes. Tom |
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