ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
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Post by ingawh on Feb 14, 2015 21:55:21 GMT -5
Jugglerguy considering what the vibe is and does I think you had a successful experiment. Thanks for the food for thought Rob. ingawh .... Gee Mo Nee Christmas that's some shiny obsidian !!!! Do you know if the Metamucil works in the rough tumble? I used to sometimes used Metamucil in the courser grinds, but I no longer do. For one thing, it's organic and so you'll want to put a Tbs. of bleach in with it to stop it from creating gas from organic processes. It can go bad. I now would rather use small media to cushion, if needed. I like to do at least two course grinds on each batch (both with 25 SiC) but the first one has very little cushioning media. This gives me better shaping. Anything not ready to move on gets another course grind, but this time, I may had more cushioning. That said, I'm not the expert on rounding and shaping. I sometimes get thin edges and not as much rounding as I'd like. What do others do about that? I also like to let the tumblers run until the course grit has all broken down. That's what lets me go straight from course to my final step in the vibe. |
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Post by captbob on Feb 14, 2015 23:19:54 GMT -5
What I find interesting is that you are using a harder stone as filler. It's usually been said that when mixing rock of different hardnesses that the softer rock will suffer. Meaning, the harder stone will take a shine while the softer will not fair as well.
Your obsidian seems to have done just fine using small harder agates as filler. Very interesting indeed.
I have a feeling that this is going to become a very hot topic once again.
Aside- what's the "hardness" of ceramic media? I'm sure I knew this once, but not offhand any longer.
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tkvancil
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2011
Posts: 1,548
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Post by tkvancil on Feb 15, 2015 0:22:27 GMT -5
Chuck aka Drummond Island Rocks has posted mixed batches of agate and obsidian in the past. Finished in the Lot-O together. His stuff all looked pretty darn good too. Definitely going to have to try this.
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ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
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Post by ingawh on Feb 15, 2015 0:34:30 GMT -5
What I find interesting is that you are using a harder stone as filler. It's usually been said that when mixing rock of different hardnesses that the softer rock will suffer. Meaning, the harder stone will take a shine while the softer will not fair as well. Your obsidian seems to have done just fine using small harder agates as filler. Very interesting indeed. I have a feeling that this is going to become a very hot topic once again. Aside- what's the "hardness" of ceramic media? I'm sure I knew this once, but not offhand any longer. I know it flies in the face of tradition to put a harder stone in with the polish, but these little agates/quartz pieces are so smooth, there's not sharp edge to scratch, and they just do the trick. Before I take credit for the innovation, this was actually a tip I got from a guy who runs racks of about 50 rotary tumblers in his shed, and he actually uses small Lake Superior Agates with his obsidian. I didn't have a stash of those, but as I was staring at my goldfish tank, and suddenly realized what they were swimming over, so I went back to Petco and got another bag of their large, round gravel. BTW, my friend saw the finish I'm getting on obsidian in the vibe, and he's finally going to bite the bullet and get a Lot-O-Tumbler! Not sure about the mohs on ceramic media. I think it might also be a 7... ? But all the tricks to protect and cushion the obsidian, including my nemesis, plastic pellets, only seem to hinder the shine, and nothing has worked like little agates. :-) |
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jamesp
Cave Dweller 
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,602
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Post by jamesp on Feb 15, 2015 3:27:31 GMT -5
You are my hero ingawh, and probably many others. Obsidian has been a long road, finally got a vibe and am getting close. Your recipe sure look easier and does a better job. Looks like your pea gravel is mostly crystalline form of quartz. The use of the hard media to break down the AO is, well, sending me to Home Depot for a bag of good ole Georgia pea gravel. Thanks for posting your discoveries. |
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Post by captbob on Feb 15, 2015 9:56:55 GMT -5
ingawh, I noticed that you joined 3 years ago. Where ya been hiding gal? Sure glad you stepped out of the shadows, this is good stuff here. What does that 25 grit do to your rotary tumbler? What type rotary are you using? Did you mention how long the batch took start to finish? Also, how long rotary and how long vibe? Two grits total ..... criminy! 
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ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
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Post by ingawh on Feb 15, 2015 13:11:07 GMT -5
ingawh, I noticed that you joined 3 years ago. Where ya been hiding gal? Sure glad you stepped out of the shadows, this is good stuff here. What does that 25 grit do to your rotary tumbler? What type rotary are you using? Did you mention how long the batch took start to finish? Also, how long rotary and how long vibe? Two grits total ..... criminy! Hi Captbob - Thanks for the warm welcome. I did join a while ago - just after I got the Lot-O-Tumbler, but at the time, folks weren't seeming to talk much about it and I had questions that people thought were crazy - they couldn't understand tumbling without nearly covering the rocks with water. So I dropped out and just experimented on my own. The 25 grit is only for use in the rotary tumbler, if that wasn't clear. I have several sizes, all Lortone. 3, 6, 12 and 40 lbs. I can't really say how long it takes in the course grinds, as a batch that starts together always gets split up as I decide what to move on and what to grind again. Some stones probably grind for months. I am not one of those, however, that changes the grit every week. I let the rotary tumblers run more like 3 - 4 weeks usually. I want the grit all used up and broken down, so that if a stone is the shape I want, it's basically been through the next stage already. If what's in the slurry is all broken down to between a 200 and 400 gauge already, then moving to 500 in the vibe is no big deal. So all the work really goes into the grinding stage. By the time I pop it in the vibe with a 1/4 tsp of 500 AO, I only have to wait 24 hours for agates and hard stuff, and about 48 hours for obsidian. The obsidian doesn't need the full 48, but the hard stuff really does need the full 24 or the AO hasn't had time to break down enough and finish the job. I haven't really experimented with just how much less time I can get away with for the obsidian... Now and then I find that I'm not satisfied with the polish. I think that can happen if the course grit hadn't broken down enough, or, of course, if something went wrong in the batch like a broken piece or a pocket may have released heavy grit. So I actually do own some 110/220 (or thereabouts) SiC in case I want to do a day or two of course grind in the vibe and then try again for a polish. I don't do that very often, however. I'm more likely to test a single piece and decide to first let the whole batch run an extra day, and see if that doesn't take care of it. I have separate barrels for the different grits in the vibe, so I don't even really bother to wash the barrels out much. Only if I've had a failed batch to I bother to clean out the little dimple at the base. I have found that simpler is usually better. It turns out just leaving it alone to do it's thing is usually most successful. I do check a new batch a couple hours after I start it to see that the slurry has developed right. If its foaming, I add a pinch of Metamucil. If it's too thick, I have a spray bottle and I give a few sprays of water and watch it loossen up - adding a bit as needed. I check again in the morning, adding water as needed. I then check one stone in the evening, and if it looks good, then after 24 hours, we're done! My favorite hand soap for the slurry is a jug of Dial. I also tried dish soap, but it wants to foam too much. The thick, kind of gel-like hand soap is nicer to work with. The other great thing about the Metamucil, is that it makes clean up easier. It almost creates a watery dough that sops up the grit so as you wash the stones, it all pops easily out of any pits or imperfections, taking the slurry/grit with it. The lid of the Lot-O-Tumbler will be damp, but you won't usually see much actual grit or slurry on it. That stays down in the barrel. Sorry for the novel, but it's fun to find folks who are actually interested in this! |
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Post by captbob on Feb 15, 2015 13:31:22 GMT -5
Thank you for the novel. I think you are going to find that you popped back in at a good time for the forum and tumbling interest. Lots of them vibe folks around now, and there have been some very involved discussions and experimenting going on lately. I'm still a rotary hold out, (simply don't need that many tumbled rocks coming out so frequently) but I find this all extremely interesting.
Your rotary grinding seems pretty normal, with the culling of material ready to move on.
But, that 25 grit is gonna raise a few eyebrows. Again, what does the 25 do to your barrels? Do they wear quickly or do you have anything to base that on?
Hope you stick around this time. By the way, we're a simple lot and love looking at pictures. Should you have any other rocks you'd like to share, we'll be here to ooh & aah appropriately!
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ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
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Post by ingawh on Feb 15, 2015 13:55:07 GMT -5
Your rotary grinding seems pretty normal, with the culling of material ready to move on. But, that 25 grit is gonna raise a few eyebrows. Again, what does the 25 do to your barrels? Do they wear quickly or do you have anything to base that on? Hope you stick around this time. By the way, we're a simple lot and love looking at pictures. Should you have any other rocks you'd like to share, we'll be here to ooh & aah appropriately! Hi CaptBob - I haven't ever replaced a rotary barrel, and don't see any wear to speak of in them. I used to start with the 60/90, but my friend with the 50 barrels actually uses 17 sometimes in his, so I found a place to buy the 25, and went for it. No issues of wear, that I can see. Again, all equipment is Lortone, if that makes a difference. I would love to post more photos, but I spent hours yesterday trying to do so, and couldn't get it to work. The best I can do is get a little placeholder icon. I had hoped they would turn into the actual image when I posted, but it doesn't. I tried from Google Drive, from Dropbox, from Flickr and from Facebook. I found a couple forum threads on it and tried everything they said. I found the ProBoards help page on it. I made sure that the images were set for public sharing in their host sites. Nothing worked. I'm usually not a computer dummy, but this had me stumped. Can't remember if it's part of why I gave up the first time.... |
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,602
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Post by jamesp on Feb 15, 2015 15:12:15 GMT -5
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Post by Jugglerguy on Feb 15, 2015 16:11:10 GMT -5
I really want to see more pictures, so here's a better explanation.   Then just paste into your message. I delete all the stuff outside the img tags, because I don't like the extra text, but you don't have to do that. |
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ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
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Post by ingawh on Feb 15, 2015 18:45:39 GMT -5
Jugglerguy - Your illustrated instructions are brilliant, though it looks like what I'd been doing. I'll keep trying - this must be do-able! :-)
Jamesp - That's the stuff!
FYI - I use Costco's house brand of Metamucil - it's cheaper, and I use the sugar-free. You can use the stuff the sugar in it, but then you'll want to use about 1/2 tsp instead of a 1/4. But you can adjust the water/thickener ratio during the process, as needed.
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ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
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Post by ingawh on Feb 15, 2015 19:01:28 GMT -5
 20150215_155248 by ingawh, on Flickr Here's a close up of my little agate/quartz media (aquarium gravel) after it's been selected for obsidian and gone through the polish. Here you can see its size relative to the barrel.  20150214_171138 by ingawh, on Flickr Here's the jasper/chert stuff I don't usually put in with obsidian, but am fine using with other hard stuff. You'll find little fossils in this stuff to - kinda cool.  20150215_155534 by ingawh, on Flickr Let's see if those come through! |
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Post by Jugglerguy on Feb 15, 2015 19:06:29 GMT -5
Woo-hoo! You did it! That's some shiny gravel.
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ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
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Post by ingawh on Feb 15, 2015 19:18:26 GMT -5
Hurrah! It was your brilliant visuals! Thanks!
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copiahdad
having dreams about rocks
Member since April 2012
Posts: 72
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Post by copiahdad on Mar 7, 2015 10:40:23 GMT -5
Ok so I'm tumbling in a Loto vibe and started off by using instructions that came with the vibe. Then after some reading in this forum I've amended that and been basically using "Drummond Island Rocks" method. But with the 120/220 and 500, I've had double with the slurry taking a while to develop. If I'm staying in the 120/220 for 2-3 days, I'm finding I'm not getting a good slurry for at least a day and half, which is cutting the grinding time down. And with the polish, I never really ever get what I would call a slurry. Now I'm reading with great interest about using sugar or psyllium to help the slurry develop faster. So I plan to try both. So how much sugar would you use in a Loto barrel with 120/220, 500 and polish? Also how much psyllium would you use with each of those also? Anyone have any pictures of what each of those slurries should look like so I know what I'm shooting for? Steven
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,602
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Post by jamesp on Mar 7, 2015 16:55:26 GMT -5
I use sugar in a vibe. Not a Lot-O type, but it should be the same situation.
I would use 1/2 cup for 5 pounds, each grit step. About 1-2 ounces water. Add one ounce and watch for several minutes, if too thick add more till rocks roll well.
I am new to the vibe. But have run 6 loads in a row with sugar and had great results.
Have been using sugar in the rotary for years.
Please post results and welcome to the forum.
PS I do not use filler with agate in the vibe with the sugar if the batch has good range of sizes including 25% small agates in the 1/2-3/4 inch range.
If tumbling rhyolite, obsidian and other soft stuff I suggest filler.
video of sugar and polish, no filler. SiC 120/220 and grey AO 500 will get dirtier, no problem. Check moisture every 12 hours to be safe.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Mar 7, 2015 17:15:32 GMT -5
copiahdad, Drummond Island Rocks and I use basically the same method. The batch I did here was different because I didn't start them in my rotary. My slurry develops pretty quickly with only borax and grit. Are you using too much water? I fill my barrel with water and the drain off as much as I can. The rocks are only wet, there is no standing water in the bottom of the barrel. Then I add borax and grit. I'm not trying to discourage you from using sugar or psyllium. I want to try those methods too. I was just trying to figure out why your slurry takes so long to get started.
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copiahdad
having dreams about rocks
Member since April 2012
Posts: 72
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Post by copiahdad on Mar 7, 2015 19:38:45 GMT -5
jamesp - Thanks for the info. I'll check the video out too. Jugglerguy - I'm only using borax after a cycle for cleanup. Currently fill tub 3/4 with rocks. Fill with water. Then turn over and drain. No standing water. Add 2 tablespoons of grit and let the slurry develop. I do not put borax in with the grit.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Mar 7, 2015 19:43:51 GMT -5
I don't think Drummond Island Rocks uses borax in the 220 stage, but I do. We both use it in all stages after 220. I use one tablespoon. I fill my barrel more than 3/4. I wonder if you're not getting good enough action in your barrel to grind rocks because you're not filling it enough. I fill mine to the point where the barrel starts to get narrower at the top. There is about an inch or maybe a little more of air space above the rocks.
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