copiahdad
having dreams about rocks
Member since April 2012
Posts: 72
|
Post by copiahdad on Mar 7, 2015 21:53:09 GMT -5
What you described is about where my rocks are loaded up to.
|
|
unclesoska
freely admits to licking rocks
All those jade boulders tossed in search of gold!
Member since February 2011
Posts: 934
|
Post by unclesoska on Mar 7, 2015 22:09:37 GMT -5
The consensus on obsidian tumbling seems to be that it is 1 of the most difficult rocks to tumble- not for beginner's (even though it was the 1st thing I tried to tumble-unsuccessfully. You may be new to the forum, but your shine is the schizzle! I think alot of us learned something. Welcome! Mike.
|
|
|
|
Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Mar 7, 2015 22:59:55 GMT -5
I don't think Drummond Island Rocks uses borax in the 220 stage, but I do. We both use it in all stages after 220. I use one tablespoon. I fill my barrel more than 3/4. I wonder if you're not getting good enough action in your barrel to grind rocks because you're not filling it enough. I fill mine to the point where the barrel starts to get narrower at the top. There is about an inch or maybe a little more of air space above the rocks. I very rarely add borax to my first stage in the vibe but then again I use a 120/220 mix and it might create a slurry quicker then graded 220. Within 4-6 hours I almost always have to squirt water to keep things moving due to the thickening so I don't see why extra additives would be necessary. I probably fill my loto barrel more then most do too. On occasion I will have rocks fall out when I take the lid off if that tells you how full it is. Borax is the only additive I have ever used. I am sure there are a hundred other things that work the same but I have never had a reason to change my formula. If I had started with sugar and it never failed me then I would stick with that too. Chuck |
|
|
|
Post by Jugglerguy on Mar 8, 2015 9:45:18 GMT -5
I've never completely understood how soap or borax works in a tumbler, I just know that they do work. Drummond Island Rocks, are you suggesting that it is just another thickener? Or is it a lubricant? Or does it make the grit stick to the rocks better? Perhaps it does all of these things. Does anyone use soap or borax in a rotary tumbler? |
|
ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
|
Post by ingawh on Mar 8, 2015 20:57:21 GMT -5
Ok so I'm tumbling in a Loto vibe and started off by using instructions that came with the vibe. Then after some reading in this forum I've amended that and been basically using "Drummond Island Rocks" method. But with the 120/220 and 500, I've had double with the slurry taking a while to develop. If I'm staying in the 120/220 for 2-3 days, I'm finding I'm not getting a good slurry for at least a day and half, which is cutting the grinding time down. And with the polish, I never really ever get what I would call a slurry. Now I'm reading with great interest about using sugar or psyllium to help the slurry develop faster. So I plan to try both. So how much sugar would you use in a Loto barrel with 120/220, 500 and polish? Also how much psyllium would you use with each of those also? Anyone have any pictures of what each of those slurries should look like so I know what I'm shooting for? Steven Hi Steven, Here's what my slurry looks like.  Slurry & cap at the end of a run. by ingawh, on Flickr I use Metamucil (psyllium) as a thickener. My slurry is a a very small amount of water, 5-6 pumps of liquid hand soap, 1/4 tsp of 500 AO, and 1/4 tsp of sugar free Metamucil. (If you use the kind with sugar, use about a 1/2 tps.) The slurry develops quickly. It starts a little foamier, but if it's too foamy, I add a tiny bit more Metamucil. I do NOT recharge the barrel after 12 hours, as the instructions advise. I let it go for 24 hours so the AO breaks down from pre-polish to become it's own polish. (You can see the cap remains almost completely clean - it's damp, but no real slurry adheres to it.) Here's that batch a few minutes later. (I can't take credit for the lovely shaping of these Lakers. A friend did that. I just put a polish on them in the Lot-O.)  Laker batch with Media by ingawh, on Flickr I used only a little media with these (the small pile to the right) because there was already a variety of sizes, no monsters, and the Lakers are hard and sturdy. (Disregard the Apache tears in the background - those were a different Lot-O batch.) |
|
SirRoxalot
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since October 2003
Posts: 790
|
Post by SirRoxalot on Mar 9, 2015 2:06:25 GMT -5
Hrmmm. I'm starting to suspect that I may be doing things wrong. Takes me a week or more to get a polish on hard stuff in the UV10.
Thanks for contributing, ingawh!
|
|
ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
|
Post by ingawh on Mar 9, 2015 10:26:45 GMT -5
Hrmmm. I'm starting to suspect that I may be doing things wrong. Takes me a week or more to get a polish on hard stuff in the UV10. Back when I used to try to follow the Lot-O instructions, slurry could be slow to develop if I got too much water in the barrel. Could that be a factor? |
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller 
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,602
|
Post by jamesp on Mar 9, 2015 10:52:52 GMT -5
Hrmmm. I'm starting to suspect that I may be doing things wrong. Takes me a week or more to get a polish on hard stuff in the UV10. Back when I used to try to follow the Lot-O instructions, slurry could be slow to develop if I got too much water in the barrel. Could that be a factor? Beautiful batch of agates ingawh. I was surprised at the problem of having too much water in the vibe. The first lesson. I leave the batch of rocks in a sieve for a few minutes to let them drain. And towel out the hopper. Start out on the dry side. Then add water sloooowly whilst adding thickeners and grit. That note should have an asterisk next to it. |
|
tkvancil
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2011
Posts: 1,548
|
Post by tkvancil on Mar 9, 2015 11:05:31 GMT -5
I've never completely understood how soap or borax works in a tumbler, I just know that they do work. Drummond Island Rocks, are you suggesting that it is just another thickener? Or is it a lubricant? Or does it make the grit stick to the rocks better? Perhaps it does all of these things. Does anyone use soap or borax in a rotary tumbler? I have used borax in the rotary in the past. I have given up the practice however. One tbs. of the stuff in a six pounder will thicken the slurry so much that by day three the rocks are sticking to the sides of the barrel. It's nearly impossible to keep the slurry "loose" after that. Took me three chipped up batches to figure that out. Stubborn I guess. |
|
agatemaggot
Cave Dweller
Member since August 2006
Posts: 2,195
|
Post by agatemaggot on Mar 9, 2015 12:03:52 GMT -5
I polish cabs in an 18 lb. vibe. I use a little Dawn, apple scented anti bacterial dish soap lightly drizzled into the bowl after draining rocks in a strainer. After adding the soap I let run for a couple minutes to coat everything and them add grit. After adding grit , you will notice load action slow down. Now you use a squirt bottle to re moisten load until original action is achieved ( before soap ). I use the ceramic media used for de-burring metal parts. Round, slant cut from McMaster-Carr.
Cheap roughing grit can be obtained from most companies using Water-Jet cutting machines. The Garnet sand is only used once and then discarded.
Most Water-Jet operators have a small mountain of grit hanging around their necks because it will pollute the local land fill ! more EPA b.s..
They can't dump it.
The Garnet brakes down faster than Carbide but it helps and the price is right, It's free !
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,602
|
Post by jamesp on Mar 9, 2015 12:45:42 GMT -5
Interesting agatemaggot. I have played with garnet grit. I asked for a sample and got a 25 pound MFRB full of it for shipping cost alone. I guessed it was cheap, forgotten the price, but I think it was less than 40 cents per pound. It was 275 grit. So you polish your cabs with garnet ? Are the cabs close to polish when they go in the vibe ? I like your method with the softer garnet grit. |
|
ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
|
Post by ingawh on Mar 9, 2015 16:43:12 GMT -5
Back when I used to try to follow the Lot-O instructions, slurry could be slow to develop if I got too much water in the barrel. Could that be a factor? Beautiful batch of agates ingawh. I was surprised at the problem of having too much water in the vibe. The first lesson. I leave the batch of rocks in a sieve for a few minutes to let them drain. And towel out the hopper. Start out on the dry side. Then add water sloooowly whilst adding thickeners and grit. That note should have an asterisk next to it. Don't know if they've revised the instructions, but when I first got the Lot-O, they were saying to add extra water if you had obsidian or softer materials, and to occasionally add a cap-ful of extra water. This can stop the rolling action altogether, and the rocks just start chattering and slamming against each other. (What were they thinking?) Only made those mistakes once each, but I made 'em. Had to start over. I think I used a lot more grit back then, too. It all washed to the bottom of course. (This was pre-Metamucil, which can usually salvage a slurry that is just a little too watery.) |
|
azgnoinc
spending too much on rocks
Member since March 2014
Posts: 484 
|
Post by azgnoinc on Mar 9, 2015 17:00:49 GMT -5
Hrmmm. I'm starting to suspect that I may be doing things wrong. Takes me a week or more to get a polish on hard stuff in the UV10. Thanks for contributing, ingawh! I also use a UV10 and generally don't run my agates & harder materials more than 48 hours & get a pretty good shine, I'd suggest less water if it's taking that long cause with your harder materials should start shining up pretty quickly. I've used both AO polish and cerium oxide - neither took more than a couple days to get a killer shine, though I suppose longer couldn't hurt. |
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,602
|
Post by jamesp on Mar 9, 2015 17:15:46 GMT -5
Sounds like bad advise ingawh. What were they thinking? Paying attention to these guys on the forum paid off. An almost seamless start to running the vibe. It goes the other way too. If the slurry gets too thick and stops the rolling action. That may be worse, the rocks sit in one place and bang craters into each other. It is understandable that some would give up without advise. And once a system works, reluctance to change. |
|
|
|
Post by victor1941 on Mar 9, 2015 21:36:25 GMT -5
I have a uv-18 that has a tumbling action just like the video. My tumbler is loaded just like the video for tumbling preform cabs with an occasional piece or so of Tampa Bay coral. I have not noticed any coral surface removal that is different than the cabs. Without researching the difference in grit size on abrasion I think the spiral/ring action of a vibe is totally different than a rotary tumbler and this provides for a different grit abrasion pattern. It would be nice to compare the same material in the vibe that uses 90 grit with a rotary and 90 grit for a side by side comparison to see if the tumbler action accounts for any difference that might occur. I use Biker Randy's process for my tumbler.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,602
|
Post by jamesp on Mar 10, 2015 6:39:03 GMT -5
I have a uv-18 that has a tumbling action just like the video. My tumbler is loaded just like the video for tumbling preform cabs with an occasional piece or so of Tampa Bay coral. I have not noticed any coral surface removal that is different than the cabs. Without researching the difference in grit size on abrasion I think the spiral/ring action of a vibe is totally different than a rotary tumbler and this provides for a different grit abrasion pattern. It would be nice to compare the same material in the vibe that uses 90 grit with a rotary and 90 grit for a side by side comparison to see if the tumbler action accounts for any difference that might occur. I use Biker Randy's process for my tumbler. The Viking can do 90 SiC victor. I tried SiC 80 in it. No ill effects so far, but it has what looks like a urethane liner. The 80 grit gets crushed to about 200 in a few hours. Vibes are good at breaking grit down, well the fragile SiC 80 was obliterated quick. As opposed to a rotary that may take a week to break down SiC 80. The vibe acted as a grit crusher. And the rocks did not see 80 grit particles for a long period. Found this phenom by accident, checking the vibe a few hours after adding 80 grit. No particles were left, 80 is easy to see. I think the smaller the grit the less likely it is to break down so fast. Like being able to use polish from a rotary many times over. |
|
|
|
Post by victor1941 on Mar 10, 2015 14:56:20 GMT -5
I think you have made a great observation about the quick grit breakdown. In the short 7 months that I have run my uv-18 the 120/220 grit does start to coat the cabs quickly and requires more checking for water to keep a good vibe action. I guess what I am observing is the quick action of the grit on the stone and also breakdown of the grit since the slurry lacks much granulation when rubbed between my fingers. I run the Thumbler recommended grit quanity and have had good results. I also wonder if I have more surface area with cab shapes that I vibe as compared to a rough stone tumble and if that is how the recommended grit amount was established.
|
|
copiahdad
having dreams about rocks
Member since April 2012
Posts: 72
|
Post by copiahdad on Mar 13, 2015 19:35:48 GMT -5
The Loto instructions I got say that about adding water. I learned to abandon that idea pretty quickly. Too much water has stopped my action totally. I now start with filling barrel of rocks with water and then drain completely. And only add from a spray bottle is it begins looking too dry. My next few runs I plan to experiment with additives of borax, sugar and Metamucil.
|
|
meviva
Cave Dweller
Member since July 2013
Posts: 1,474 
|
Post by meviva on Mar 14, 2015 12:01:30 GMT -5
 20150215_155248 by ingawh, on Flickr Here's a close up of my little agate/quartz media (aquarium gravel) after it's been selected for obsidian and gone through the polish. Lots of great info. After sorting the aquarium gravel can you put the agates in with obsidian right away or do they need to be run by themselves first? Andrea |
|
ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
|
Post by ingawh on Mar 14, 2015 20:41:00 GMT -5
Quote:
Lots of great info. After sorting the aquarium gravel can you put the agates in with obsidian right away or do they need to be run by themselves first?
Andrea
Hi Andrea,
No, I'm afraid before I use aquarium gravel on obsidian, it's gone all the way through at least one course grind, been sorted, polished, and re-sorted, to get the best of the best. First I sort out the worst looking stuff, then toss the gravel in with a course grind on good hard stuff -- mohs 7 stuff. Then I sort out the good looking gravel and it goes on through to polish. Do that a couple times, and you should have enough polished gravel to sort out the best of the best to use with obsidian. Some of the gravel goes back into the course grind, and some of it gets weeded out altogether if it's too flawed. (They put some kind of lacquer on it. The lacquer easily grinds off with no side effects, but the lacquer sometimes had filled pits and can hold grit. Those pieces get tossed back into future course grinds, or weeded out if they're just too rough.
I keep three tubs of gravel - the stuff to use in course grinds, the stuff that has already taken a good polish, and the best-of-the-best pieces for obsidian. I also sometimes retire pieces that I just really like - some of them have beautiful colors! Some are even little coral fossils.
I hope that helps. Let me know if you have any other questions. Best wishes!
Inga
|
|
