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Post by Rockindad on May 23, 2021 16:08:24 GMT -5
So after having some success with our first batch in the Lot-O I was figuring any issues we had were user error. I was not happy with the movement in the barrel at any of the stages but was really disappointed with the 120/220SiC. For the first time since we ran our original load in our NG 2lb. rotary we followed a recipe that was not developed based on our own experiences. While I like discussions of concepts (as in this ingredient performs this task, etc.) I usually skip over any recipes as one of the favorite parts of this hobby for us is figuring things out. While it certainly lengthens the learning process I believe it is more beneficial to learn from mistakes made and figuring out how to overcome them. That being said, we want to eventually do a thorough side by side comparison of the Lot-O and Thumler's UV-10 (which we have a lot of miles on) and figured we have to come up with a baseline recipe to be used by both machines. We have done so much tweaking of recipes with the UV-10 we decided it might be easier to start over with the Lot-O using a "standard" recipe found on the board. Of Course there are many variations to be found, for the record we used: -1 Tbsp. Borax, 2 Tbsp. 120/220 for 48 hours -1 Tbsp. Borax, 1/2 Tsp. 500AO for 48 hours -1 Tbsp. Borax, 1/2 Tsp. 1000AO for 48 hours -1 Tbsp. Borax, 1/2 Tsp. AO Polish for 48 hours - Clean-out The experience can be found: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/95398/first-impressions-updated-trial-loadThat batch finished May 16th, since then I have been banging my head against the wall over this machine. I have not gotten out of 120/220SiC. No matter what variables are changed. I have restarted a load every day since then and end up with the same results each time: a thick clumping mass of grit and rocks at the bottom of the barrel. "Well you have too much water in there dummy", yep that's what I thought as well. Made sure I ran the next load a bit dryer, same thing. Okay, I guess I'm a little slow, going to shake all the water out of that barrel next time, let it set over a collander so that the load is barely moist, same thing, only this time the pieces that are still circulating at all (really just bouncing around) are very dry. Should note that we are running glass at this point and I start to think maybe it is the size of some of the pieces clogging up the works. Took out all of the larger ones (could maybe be palm stones for a younger child) and replaced with smaller ones and even more ceramics. We had the machine mounted to a rather stout workbench that I was confident was not contributing to this but just to be safe mounted it directly to our concrete floor, many times the mass of the block they recommend taping it to. Really?!?!? Same results. I try to be a logical and methodical person but I am pissed at this point, still convinced it must be something I am doing. AHA! It must be the glass! The vibe wants a four pound load and all of this glass is pretty light, gotta weigh it. The full load with ceramics is a hair over three pounds. Hahaha I laugh, tell A.J. I can't believe we didn't think of that before. Breathe a sigh of relief and grab some real rocks to run, 100% percent convinced the problem has been solved and all is right in Tumbleland. Get the new load running with nothing but Agates and Jaspers and it's looking a bit better, fingers crossed. Checking on it many times throughout the evening is torture, every time it is slower and slower until it ends up right where we were with the glass. Now I may be new to the Lot-O but we have run A LOT of rocks and glass through the UV-10. While the movement is somewhat different in these machines, we know how to develop and maintain a vibe slurry. Tried a couple more times, taking out any jagged or "problem" rocks, filling the barrel more, less, etc. Same results every time. Think about selling the machine but too proud to admit defeat. One idea that has been nagging at me the whole time: what if the machine is not vibrating enough to create the necessary circulation of the load but just enough to rattle the water and the grit off of the stones until it coagulates at the bottom of the barrel? Seems like this would produce the results we are seeing every single time and be almost impossible to keep a decent slurry going. How to proceed? Everything seems structurally sound on the machine- body, fans aligned, anchoring rock solid, springs intact, fasteners tightened. Leaves only the dowel that is brad nailed and screwed in place. Before I rip that out I grab some all-thread pieces I have that are of a similar diameter and wedge them under the springs to manipulate the machine. Hmmm....yes I can speed up the action, but should I have to. Still want to verify that it is the machine and not me. I decide to run upstairs to watch one of Rob's Jugglerguy videos. He has some really good views of the action in this video: After seeing the initial action at 28:00 minutes and after 48 hours at 31:00 I realize my machine was poorly tuned, we have never had action like this. Guess I know what I've got to do now. Just a little frustrated  . |
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Post by rockjunquie on May 23, 2021 16:12:47 GMT -5
Ugh... How frustrating!
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Post by Peruano on May 23, 2021 17:13:43 GMT -5
If its bogging down with no movement, give it a spritz of water. You should see an almost immediate pick up in movement. I'd be using a healthy dose of dawn liquid to lubricate things and to build up a slurry to carry the grit. The soap takes a bit (30 min or so) but you should not be needing to monitor it constantly or to add water more than once or twice once you have the desired movement. I use the rule that if things are too violent, I add more rocks (fill or additional specimens). Once my bowl is adequately fill and if its still to violent, I'll add a bit of water, but not enough that I can see it in the bottom of the bowl. If things are too slow, I may take out the biggest rocks to reduce weight, but if the slowness appear to be because things are too mucked up (pasty) I add a spritz of water. Jagged rocks take a while to settle into the motion, but pretumbled rocks should rock and roll pretty quickly if you lubricate them with a bit of water and soap. I'm certainly not fastidious about pouring off water but I do tip the bowl and let nearly all obvious water run off. They are all vibes but it may be of importance to acknowledge I use the raytech 5; gyroc Model B, and the minisonic, none of which are part of your discussion,
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Brian
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since July 2020
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Post by Brian on May 23, 2021 20:02:37 GMT -5
The 120/220 SiC stage is the only one I have had any issues with in the Lot-O. I started out with 2 Tbsp, but have since cut that back to 1 Tbsp and I only run it for one day and then clean it out and reload. I have tried running it for 2 days in 120/220 and it slows down too much by the middle of the second day, so I have given up trying to push it any more than 1 day.
The only other thing I have noticed causing problems is the size/shape distribution of rocks. Too many big rocks just seem to jam up and block the motion too much. It things don't seem to be moving, I try to take out one of the bigger rocks and that usually helps.
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Post by Rockindad on May 23, 2021 20:19:10 GMT -5
If its bogging down with no movement, give it a spritz of water. You should see an almost immediate pick up in movement. I'd be using a healthy dose of dawn liquid to lubricate things and to build up a slurry to carry the grit. The soap takes a bit (30 min or so) but you should not be needing to monitor it constantly or to add water more than once or twice once you have the desired movement. I use the rule that if things are too violent, I add more rocks (fill or additional specimens). Once my bowl is adequately fill and if its still to violent, I'll add a bit of water, but not enough that I can see it in the bottom of the bowl. If things are too slow, I may take out the biggest rocks to reduce weight, but if the slowness appear to be because things are too mucked up (pasty) I add a spritz of water. Jagged rocks take a while to settle into the motion, but pretumbled rocks should rock and roll pretty quickly if you lubricate them with a bit of water and soap. I'm certainly not fastidious about pouring off water but I do tip the bowl and let nearly all obvious water run off. They are all vibes but it may be of importance to acknowledge I use the raytech 5; gyroc Model B, and the minisonic, none of which are part of your discussion, Water wasn't the problem as it all ended up in the cementitious glob at the bottom of the barrel. Until you mentioned it I forgot I used liquid soap (dawn a couple of times and also a hand soap once) as we regularly do this in the UV-10 to create thick slurries, same settling occurred. Even removed the barrel more times than i can mention to shake things loose, try to pour off any excess liquid, etc. I can definitively state that our Lot-O was poorly tuned from the manufacturer. I removed the dowel that sits under the springs and played around with the location and I'd say it has twice the action that it did before. I even loaded it up with more rocks, including a few jagged ones to see if it can maintain movement. It has been 3-4 hours, so far so good. Seems I should have listened to my nagging feeling instead of assuming user error. Glad we got it figured out, ticked off that we had to. While I've got you, how do you like that mini-sonic? How adjustable is it really? I thought about going in that direction but I really wanted to see the rubber barrel of the Lot-O in action. What configuration do you have. Sorry for all of the questions Tom, just really curious about them, thanks. |
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saxplayer
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since March 2018
Posts: 1,327
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Post by saxplayer on May 23, 2021 22:39:50 GMT -5
I hear you on the frustrations. It seems the QC is all over the board for lot-o.
It’s a shame because I can’t quite replicate the shine with my mini sonic yet. I’m still dialing it in also.
Regarding my lot o, the action tuning is the issue. Some are better than others. Also make sure your springs aren’t broken.
Dont use borax with the 120/220 stage. No need for more thickness it will develop on its own.
I am still finding my perfect lot-o recipe. It’s the best shine for what I’ve been able to obtain bar none. It also takes my perfect rocks and chips them or spalls them occasionally which is what I got a mini sonic to play with for.
The mini sonic I don’t have dialed in yet. I did some softer picture jasper and obsidian in it and wasn’t happy with the shine. Ran same recipe through lot/o and it was amazing. Overall it’s frustrating that the lot-o can’t be more consistent as it definitely makes a great shine.
Hang in there and keep trying.
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oldschoolrocker
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Member since January 2019
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Post by oldschoolrocker on May 24, 2021 2:04:06 GMT -5
I'd remove the borax from the 120 stage. It tends to be difficult to keep the action going for 2-3 days as it is. And normally when can't keep the action moving anymore w spritz of water then il cover the barrel opening sith my hand and turn barrel upside down for a bit to remove some of slurry buildup. But i go with just rhe grit for 120 stage. Then borax for rest
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oldschoolrocker
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,578
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Post by oldschoolrocker on May 24, 2021 2:11:55 GMT -5
Ha! Guess it would help If I read the whole thread before posting so dont offer my repetitive advice for a problem already solved lol
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Post by Peruano on May 24, 2021 8:52:27 GMT -5
The minisonic for me has a distinct movement pattern. Rolling live waves in one direction rather than swirling or rotating slowly. Mine is the old version so not adjustable. That said, it is the machine I go to for any particularly problematic load (excessively rough rocks, occasional big ones more likely to clog up action in the other vibes, and small batches, because it seems less particular about load weight or volume. I like all of my vibes, but each has its own place in my activity.
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Post by Rockindad on May 24, 2021 11:07:08 GMT -5
The minisonic for me has a distinct movement pattern. Rolling live waves in one direction rather than swirling or rotating slowly. Mine is the old version so not adjustable. That said, it is the machine I go to for any particularly problematic load (excessively rough rocks, occasional big ones more likely to clog up action in the other vibes, and small batches, because it seems less particular about load weight or volume. I like all of my vibes, but each has its own place in my activity. Thanks for the insight, those machines have me seriously curious! |
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Post by Rockindad on May 24, 2021 11:16:14 GMT -5
I hear you on the frustrations. It seems the QC is all over the board for lot-o. It’s a shame because I can’t quite replicate the shine with my mini sonic yet. I’m still dialing it in also. Regarding my lot o, the action tuning is the issue. Some are better than others. Also make sure your springs aren’t broken. Dont use borax with the 120/220 stage. No need for more thickness it will develop on its own. I am still finding my perfect lot-o recipe. It’s the best shine for what I’ve been able to obtain bar none. It also takes my perfect rocks and chips them or spalls them occasionally which is what I got a mini sonic to play with for. The mini sonic I don’t have dialed in yet. I did some softer picture jasper and obsidian in it and wasn’t happy with the shine. Ran same recipe through lot/o and it was amazing. Overall it’s frustrating that the lot-o can’t be more consistent as it definitely makes a great shine. Hang in there and keep trying. Yeah I forgot to mention that we dropped the borax about halfway through the week, another case where we thought “That’s got to be it!”Don’t usually use it in the UV-10 with SiC unless it looks like we had the load too wet at startup. As I mentioned in the other thread we were happy with the results we got with our initial load all things considered. Not giving up until it is dialed in perfectly. Have already seen a world of difference. |
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ericabelle
spending too much on rocks
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Post by ericabelle on May 24, 2021 14:04:57 GMT -5
Rockindad , I'm so sorry you had trouble! My I finished my first batch yesterday, and it turned out great despite the fact that I had put a few rocks in with limestone layers and several had pits or cracks to trap grit. When I was about to do my final two hour burnish with Borax, I couldn't get the rocks to move. They just shuddered- I was afraid they would chip. I just kept wedging the barrel slightly one way and then another, and they finally started moving. If I have any more trouble, I'll remember to check the position of the dowel! Glad you are going before me to work out all the kinks! 😆
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Post by Rockindad on May 24, 2021 17:07:41 GMT -5
ericabelle it seems it is just luck of the draw and I agree when saxplayer said "It seems the QC is all over the board for lot-o." Ours has been running for 24 hours now moving well and creating a thick slurry. Makes me wonder exactly how these are "tuned" by the manufacturer. From where we found our sweet spot, the placement of the dowel from the manufacturer was off 3/8" on one side and 1/2" on the worse side (yep, it was crooked). A pic of the better side: 
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Post by Jugglerguy on May 27, 2021 12:40:22 GMT -5
I just read the original post, but none of the responses. I'm heading out of town in a few minutes, so all I have time for is to post this thread. Hopefully you're on your way to figuring this out. aDave's Lot-O Tuning Problem |
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ericabelle
spending too much on rocks
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Post by ericabelle on May 27, 2021 14:44:30 GMT -5
Rockindad , yeah it really does make you wonder about their QC when the Lot-O works for some people, but is a constant headache for others. And it seems to work for some people for months, then the action stops. If it's a machine that is eventually going to need adjustments, they should really make it easier to adjust! Like you said when you got it, it looks like something someone made in their garage!
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thebeef
having dreams about rocks
Member since September 2020
Posts: 62 
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Post by thebeef on May 27, 2021 15:40:08 GMT -5
That's several times the amount of borax that I use, when I use it. The rest of it reads as I'd expect if I used that much borax.
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Post by Rockindad on May 27, 2021 16:35:58 GMT -5
I just read the original post, but none of the responses. I'm heading out of town in a few minutes, so all I have time for is to post this thread. Hopefully you're on your way to figuring this out. aDave's Lot-O Tuning ProblemThanks Rob! I have read that thread in the past but did not remember that it was aDave in particular. I would say my experiences have been very similar to his. It is a little more of a pain to move the dowel now as they use a brad nailer to secure the dowel first and then dollop the adhesive (feels like hot glue to me) on top of it. In order to pry the dowel loose the frame has to be unscrewed from the base. Not the end of the world but more than some would want to deal with. At the very least it is a good time to check the springs and verify the fasteners are tight. Interestingly I spoke to a nice lady at Lot-O/Belt Inc. today (supposed to be getting a call from Mr. Calway on Tuesday). In no uncertain terms she told me I was wrong in saying the action improved by moving the dowel towards the base and that it should be "way back towards the motor". When I tried to explain to her that when I was using it as set up from them and said "no matter my moisture level the grit and moisture would settle to the bottom of the barrel due to a lack of circulation preventing the formation of a slurry" she jumped on that and replied "you should never have a slurry in the Lot-O". That is when I asked when Mr. Calway would be available. Actually it was a very polite conversation, just not what I was looking for. She did tell me that every Lot-O is run for twenty minutes to verify proper operation but did not know any particulars (such as what is actually in the barrels for testing: dry media, rocks with grit, etc.) as she is more in sales, etc. Very much looking forward to having a respectful and productive discussion with Mr. Calway, I'd really like to pick his brain on a few things if he is willing to talk. Despite the title of this thread I am not looking to bash any product. I paid good money for it and really hope to like it as much or even more than our UV-10. The title was nothing but expressing the frustration I was having at the time. I have no doubt we are on the right track now. |
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Post by Rockindad on May 27, 2021 16:49:37 GMT -5
That's several times the amount of borax that I use, when I use it. The rest of it reads as I'd expect if I used that much borax. Interesting, I only used 1Tbsp. as so many on here seem to have success with that amount. We did run a few loads without any borax in the 120/220SiC stage and experienced the same issues. The successful run (after moving the dowel) was done with 2Tbsp. 120/220 only, no borax. Only use borax in our UV-10 during 120/220SiC if we want to thicken the slurry/soften the action right away for a certain material. This practice load is now in 1Tbsp. borax, 1/2 Tsp. 500AO (been about 48 hours) and all seems good. |
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saxplayer
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Post by saxplayer on May 27, 2021 18:07:24 GMT -5
That's several times the amount of borax that I use, when I use it. The rest of it reads as I'd expect if I used that much borax. Interesting, I only used 1Tbsp. as so many on here seem to have success with that amount. We did run a few loads without any borax in the 120/220SiC stage and experienced the same issues. The successful run (after moving the dowel) was done with 2Tbsp. 120/220 only, no borax. Only use borax in our UV-10 during 120/220SiC if we want to thicken the slurry/soften the action right away for a certain material. This practice load is now in 1Tbsp. borax, 1/2 Tsp. 500AO (been about 48 hours) and all seems good. I use in my lot-o (and mini-sonic to replicate for now): 120/220: 2 TBL grit - NO borax - 500 or 1000 AO: 1/2 tsp grit 1 TBL borax Polish 1/2 tsp polish 1 TBL borax Burnish if done: 2 TBL borax |
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ericabelle
spending too much on rocks
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Post by ericabelle on May 27, 2021 18:29:07 GMT -5
saxplayer , how long do you run the second phase if you use 500 AO? I've heard 2 days and 3 days. I'm only on my second Lot-O batch, and I started 500 AO today.
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