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Post by vegasjames on Jun 23, 2022 23:12:15 GMT -5
Sometimes, that's just how it goes on here. Down the rabbit hole. Nothing is sacred. True, but look at how much we learn in the process.
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Post by rockpickerforever on Jun 23, 2022 23:15:44 GMT -5
That's a BIG 10-4 James. Couldn't have said it better myself! We all have the capability of learning something new every day!
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Post by vegasjames on Jun 24, 2022 0:45:13 GMT -5
Mask threads are never innocent They cover deeper issues Usually a bunch political balony Butte were all bunch of smarty 🪨 Seems like a mohs move was made I saw some bold claims that required some Minutia evidence Life a bitch enuff w/out Some conspiracy to keep us enslaved. Of course I'm lone nutter So what does mohs knohs.? Nobody said anything about a conspiracy or being enslaved.
And evidence is out there in the medical journals, which few people use. They tend to follow misinformation propagated in the mainstream media. For example showing virons can pass through an N95, which is still finer than the majority of masks people are wearing:
And transmission of the virus through the eyes:
Study on the aerosolization of the virus, the long term it can remain active outside the body, the transmission through the eyes, the fact that there is no real science proving social distancing stops the spread, the problem with gaps with masks, the aerosolization of the virus by masks, etc. that I discussed:
Basically, at least 98% of what Fauci and the media has been feeding us about covid is complete nonsense totally discredited be actual, credible medical studies. There are plenty more medical studies contradicting what we are being told and for proven covid cures such as ozone therapy that can be easily found at PubMed.
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Post by rockjunquie on Jun 24, 2022 4:30:36 GMT -5
ALL- This thread was supposed to be about masks for LAPIDARY work. Let's keep it that way. Covid related mask discussions belong in the Cave.
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Post by HankRocks on Jun 24, 2022 5:19:23 GMT -5
ALL- This thread was supposed to be about masks for LAPIDARY work. Let's keep it that way. Covid related mask discussions belong in the Cave. Thank you!!!
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markb
Cave Dweller
Member since May 2022
Posts: 472
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Post by markb on Jun 24, 2022 14:45:50 GMT -5
markb Did you think your thread would go down this rabbit hole lol!? No I didn't, and oh boy what a hole it was!
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Tommy
Administrator
Member since January 2013
Posts: 12,989
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Post by Tommy on Jun 24, 2022 19:06:19 GMT -5
markb Did you think your thread would go down this rabbit hole lol!? No I didn't, and oh boy what a hole it was! No kidding - I got sick and missed the whole thing and had to go back and read it trying to figure out how we went from lapidary safety to melting Teslas and covid
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Post by mohs on Jun 24, 2022 19:12:20 GMT -5
glad I deleted some of my stuff or we could throw Iggy Pop in the mix
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khara
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2022
Posts: 1,980
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Post by khara on Dec 12, 2022 4:50:15 GMT -5
Cover me! I'm going in!
This is me suited up for some Tiffanystone. The mask is leftover from my glassblowing days. I used to paint cars, too.
No stranger to a mask. If you need it, you need it.
I would never have guessed TiffanyStone is on the list of dangerous rocks. How do I discern this? Is there a list? ————— rockjunquie Oh for heaven’s sake, I just needed to keep scrolling. Found your previous answer…..
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Post by vegasjames on Dec 12, 2022 6:33:09 GMT -5
Cover me! I'm going in!
This is me suited up for some Tiffanystone. The mask is leftover from my glassblowing days. I used to paint cars, too.
No stranger to a mask. If you need it, you need it.
I would never have guessed TiffanyStone is on the list of dangerous rocks. How do I discern this? Is there a list? ————— rockjunquie Oh for heaven’s sake, I just needed to keep scrolling. Found your previous answer….. Tiffany stones are not all that dangerous. They are a mix of various minerals, up to 16, predominated by fluorite. Some of the ore does contain a tiny trace of bertrandite, which is a beryllium ore found in multiple locations around the world. The amount in Tiffany stones is so tiny though that it is not even present in the majority of the ore. Analysis of the Utah Tiffany stone from Brush-Wellman shown only around 0.04-0.07% of bertrandite. Be pretty hard to get beryllium poisoning from that.
A lot of these rock lists such as dangerous stones to work with, or ones not compatible with water are generally full of incorrect and misleading information.
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Post by rockjunquie on Dec 12, 2022 7:10:32 GMT -5
I would never have guessed TiffanyStone is on the list of dangerous rocks. How do I discern this? Is there a list? ————— rockjunquie Oh for heaven’s sake, I just needed to keep scrolling. Found your previous answer….. Tiffany stones are not all that dangerous. They are a mix of various minerals, up to 16, predominated by fluorite. Some of the ore does contain a tiny trace of bertrandite, which is a beryllium ore found in multiple locations around the world. The amount in Tiffany stones is so tiny though that it is not even present in the majority of the ore. Analysis of the Utah Tiffany stone from Brush-Wellman shown only around 0.04-0.07% of bertrandite. Be pretty hard to get beryllium poisoning from that.
A lot of these rock lists such as dangerous stones to work with, or ones not compatible with water are generally full of incorrect and misleading information.
James, I agree that some of the risks are over hyped, but what do you think about the cumulative effects?
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Post by vegasjames on Dec 12, 2022 8:35:13 GMT -5
Tiffany stones are not all that dangerous. They are a mix of various minerals, up to 16, predominated by fluorite. Some of the ore does contain a tiny trace of bertrandite, which is a beryllium ore found in multiple locations around the world. The amount in Tiffany stones is so tiny though that it is not even present in the majority of the ore. Analysis of the Utah Tiffany stone from Brush-Wellman shown only around 0.04-0.07% of bertrandite. Be pretty hard to get beryllium poisoning from that.
A lot of these rock lists such as dangerous stones to work with, or ones not compatible with water are generally full of incorrect and misleading information.
James, I agree that some of the risks are over hyped, but what do you think about the cumulative effects? Most toxic metals are not readily absorbed and often have very short half lives in the body.
One reason for this is that the foods we consume often have natural chelation agents such as phytates, algins and pectins that bind these metals preventing absorption. That would be what we would obtain orally. Inhalation is a different story, but again they are overlooking facts there as well. For example, most rocks we deal with contain silica and therefore according to these lists almost all rocks we cab would be a major danger from silicosis. It is not as big of an issue as they are making it out to be though. Silicosis requires the inhalation of larger amounts of silica over a very extended period of time. Why? Because out lungs have hair-like projections called cilia that facilitate the removal of foreign particles and mucus that helps trap these particles for removal. This is why not everyone has silicosis from inhaling all the silica dust naturally in the air all the time. Instead, we see silicosis in people who are exposed to large amounts of silica being inhaled such as some miners, sandblasters not wearing proper protection. some military personnel on carriers who have the job of stripping old paint off the carrier decks, etc.
Another reason goes back to chemistry. There is a thing called the electromotive series of metals. In short, this is a list of metal reactivity. Metals higher on the list are more reactive and therefore displace metals of lower reactivity in solution. For example, this principle is used in medicine for the treatment of bipolar depression. Bipolar is a result of the sodium shift in the brain neurons so they need something more reactive than the sodium to displace it. Both potassium and lithium are more reactive than the sodium, but too much potassium can stop the heart, which makes it particularly dangerous to some individuals such as those on potassium sparing diuretics, with cancer undergoing therapy, with kidney disease, etc. So, instead they use lithium, which is actually more reactive than potassium anyway, and only destroys the liver. Yes, that is sarcasm. Many metals essential to the body are much more reactive than toxic metals. For instance, at the top of the series it includes in order of reactivity potassium, sodium, and calcium. Therefore, many toxic metals are readily displaced and can be removed the body in short order. Very few, such as a few radioactive isotopes can lodge in the body and stay there for extended periods of time. This is likely because they lodge in the bones, which does not have a major blood supply and thus makes it harder to displace the metals.
One of the metals I have seen listed as supposedly being so toxic to the body is copper, which is very misleading. Copper is actually essential to the body. It is needed for the formation o red blood cells, melanin, collagen and elastin as well as the antioxidant, anticancer, anti-inflammatory and immune stimulatory enzyme copper-superoxide dismutase (CuSOD). There have been people overseas that work with Congo malachite making carvings and such that have been poisoned by grinding large amounts of the stone. Not from copper though. I was talking to a local importer and he said the poisonings were actually due to the arsenic content of the Congo malachite. Arsenic is a cumulative poison, but it is also easily displaced from the body, so it takes a fair amount over generally a long period of time to even show symptoms. I knew someone many years ago who was being deliberately poisoned with arsenic so I learned a lot about this toxin. Symptoms of poisoning mimic a number of other things, so diagnosing can be difficult. In fact, it took 6 months before I figured out she was being poisoned when she finally told me she kept getting a weird taste in her mouth. I said "is it garlicky" and she said "yes, how did you know"? That is when I got a urine sample and tested it for arsenic, which is a very simple test. Acidity the urine, add some stannous chloride, heat the test tube to bring the solution to a boil and let cool. If arsenic is present then a black precipitate will form. She was loaded with arsenic. It is a very long and super bizarre story, but in short the things she was being treated for based on her history and symptoms was displacing the arsenic. So the people poising her kept upping the arsenic dose to kill her before Halloween. Didn't work. Good example though of how even with something like arsenic that is a cumulative poison, it is not that easy to due from slow exposure. In fact, apples we get in the grocery store are preserved using arsenic, and arsenic is found in the bran of brown rice. Yet we do not hear of poisonings from these sources because these sources get bound and not absorbed in to the bloodstream. In apples, the arsenic gets bound by the pectins, and in the rice by the phytates in the bran.
The other thing to keep in mind is the form metals are in. Some forms are less toxic than others. For example, ethyl mercury is less toxic that methyl mercury, although ethyl mercury can be converted by Candida in the gut in to methyl mercury. Yet cinnabar, which is also on the list of dangerous minerals despite its being used to this day in Chinese medicine. Even though cinnabar contains mercury, it is very poorly absorbed.
The bertrandite of Tiffany stones is a beryllium silicate, not the toxic beryllium metal. If you look at the chemistry as well, there are only 4 beryllium atoms and 13 other atoms between silicon, oxygen and hydrogen. This means that while the amount of bertrandite in the ore is only 0.04-0.07%, of that only a tiny fraction of that is actual beryllium, and the bertrandite would have to dissociate in to elemental beryllium to even be toxic anyway. There is a possibility of dissociation if ingested due to the reaction of the hydroxyl group with stomach acid, but this is highly unlikely with inhalation. Bottom line is that I feel it is virtually impossible to get a toxic level of elemental beryllium from Tiffany stones even if you were cabbing 100 pounds a day of the material since bertrandite is not even present in the majority of the ore to begin with.
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Post by rockjunquie on Dec 12, 2022 8:52:45 GMT -5
James, I agree that some of the risks are over hyped, but what do you think about the cumulative effects? Most toxic metals are not readily absorbed and often have very short half lives in the body.
One reason for this is that the foods we consume often have natural chelation agents such as phytates, algins and pectins that bind these metals preventing absorption. That would be what we would obtain orally. Inhalation is a different story, but again they are overlooking facts there as well. For example, most rocks we deal with contain silica and therefore according to these lists almost all rocks we cab would be a major danger from silicosis. It is not as big of an issue as they are making it out to be though. Silicosis requires the inhalation of larger amounts of silica over a very extended period of time. Why? Because out lungs have hair-like projections called cilia that facilitate the removal of foreign particles and mucus that helps trap these particles for removal. This is why not everyone has silicosis from inhaling all the silica dust naturally in the air all the time. Instead, we see silicosis in people who are exposed to large amounts of silica being inhaled such as some miners, sandblasters not wearing proper protection. some military personnel on carriers who have the job of stripping old paint off the carrier decks, etc.
Another reason goes back to chemistry. There is a thing called the electromotive series of metals. In short, this is a list of metal reactivity. Metals higher on the list are more reactive and therefore displace metals of lower reactivity in solution. For example, this principle is used in medicine for the treatment of bipolar depression. Bipolar is a result of the sodium shift in the brain neurons so they need something more reactive than the sodium to displace it. Both potassium and lithium are more reactive than the sodium, but too much potassium can stop the heart, which makes it particularly dangerous to some individuals such as those on potassium sparing diuretics, with cancer undergoing therapy, with kidney disease, etc. So, instead they use lithium, which is actually more reactive than potassium anyway, and only destroys the liver. Yes, that is sarcasm. Many metals essential to the body are much more reactive than toxic metals. For instance, at the top of the series it includes in order of reactivity potassium, sodium, and calcium. Therefore, many toxic metals are readily displaced and can be removed the body in short order. Very few, such as a few radioactive isotopes can lodge in the body and stay there for extended periods of time. This is likely because they lodge in the bones, which does not have a major blood supply and thus makes it harder to displace the metals.
One of the metals I have seen listed as supposedly being so toxic to the body is copper, which is very misleading. Copper is actually essential to the body. It is needed for the formation o red blood cells, melanin, collagen and elastin as well as the antioxidant, anticancer, anti-inflammatory and immune stimulatory enzyme copper-superoxide dismutase (CuSOD). There have been people overseas that work with Congo malachite making carvings and such that have been poisoned by grinding large amounts of the stone. Not from copper though. I was talking to a local importer and he said the poisonings were actually due to the arsenic content of the Congo malachite. Arsenic is a cumulative poison, but it is also easily displaced from the body, so it takes a fair amount over generally a long period of time to even show symptoms. I knew someone many years ago who was being deliberately poisoned with arsenic so I learned a lot about this toxin. Symptoms of poisoning mimic a number of other things, so diagnosing can be difficult. In fact, it took 6 months before I figured out she was being poisoned when she finally told me she kept getting a weird taste in her mouth. I said "is it garlicky" and she said "yes, how did you know"? That is when I got a urine sample and tested it for arsenic, which is a very simple test. Acidity the urine, add some stannous chloride, heat the test tube to bring the solution to a boil and let cool. If arsenic is present then a black precipitate will form. She was loaded with arsenic. It is a very long and super bizarre story, but in short the things she was being treated for based on her history and symptoms was displacing the arsenic. So the people poising her kept upping the arsenic dose to kill her before Halloween. Didn't work. Good example though of how even with something like arsenic that is a cumulative poison, it is not that easy to due from slow exposure. In fact, apples we get in the grocery store are preserved using arsenic, and arsenic is found in the bran of brown rice. Yet we do not hear of poisonings from these sources because these sources get bound and not absorbed in to the bloodstream. In apples, the arsenic gets bound by the pectins, and in the rice by the phytates in the bran.
The other thing to keep in mind is the form metals are in. Some forms are less toxic than others. For example, ethyl mercury is less toxic that methyl mercury, although ethyl mercury can be converted by Candida in the gut in to methyl mercury. Yet cinnabar, which is also on the list of dangerous minerals despite its being used to this day in Chinese medicine. Even though cinnabar contains mercury, it is very poorly absorbed.
The bertrandite of Tiffany stones is a beryllium silicate, not the toxic beryllium metal. If you look at the chemistry as well, there are only 4 beryllium atoms and 13 other atoms between silicon, oxygen and hydrogen. This means that while the amount of bertrandite in the ore is only 0.04-0.07%, of that only a tiny fraction of that is actual beryllium, and the bertrandite would have to dissociate in to elemental beryllium to even be toxic anyway. There is a possibility of dissociation if ingested due to the reaction of the hydroxyl group with stomach acid, but this is highly unlikely with inhalation. Bottom line is that I feel it is virtually impossible to get a toxic level of elemental beryllium from Tiffany stones even if you were cabbing 100 pounds a day of the material since bertrandite is not even present in the majority of the ore to begin with.
Excellent! Thank you! OF COURSE, it is a good idea to be as safe as you need to be, but we don't need to be paranoid about it. Also, I'm sure some people are more susceptible to the effects of these things due to their health and body chemistry. If someone already has reduced lung capacity, for example, it seems logical to try to preserve what you have left. Those individuals, it seems, would be best served by using a filter mask for ALL silica and not just the "bad" stuff.
Great post, James.
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markb
Cave Dweller
Member since May 2022
Posts: 472
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Post by markb on Dec 12, 2022 18:34:54 GMT -5
Well, I hate to do this, but since this was my original post about safety, I think I've found another option for both sawing and grinding rocks safely, and or, uhmm, well... just about doing anything! Sorry the picture is blurry, but I think you'll get the idea.
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