ThomasT
has rocks in the head
Member since June 2022
Posts: 616
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Post by ThomasT on Jun 22, 2022 19:44:09 GMT -5
Silicosis and fibrosis of the lung is still being diagnosed in the United States but not at the level of incidence of developing countries where workers do not have knowledge of the danger nor have access to adequate protection. It is true that Silicosis mortality rates in the United States have fallen dramatically since employers were required to provide adequate protection, worker education and limits of exposure to rock dust. It's usually neither too difficult nor expensive to protect against the majority of exposure.
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Post by vegasjames on Jun 22, 2022 19:54:48 GMT -5
Silicosis and fibrosis of the lung is still being diagnosed in the United States but not at the level of incidence of developing countries where workers do not have knowledge of the danger nor have access to adequate protection. It is true that Silicosis mortality rates in the United States have fallen dramatically since employers were required to provide adequate protection, worker education and limits of exposure to rock dust. It's usually neither too difficult nor expensive to protect against the majority of exposure. Pulmonary fibrosis has many causes including autoimmunity, radiation, some pharmaceutical drugs, etc.
As for silicosis, there is still a major difference between occupational exposure to lots of inhaled silica over a period of time and the small amount of silica we get exposed to when cabbing with water. As you state in your post "and limits of exposure to rock dust". Not elimination but reduction to exposure. That is again because our mucus and cilia can easily deal with minor exposure to inhaled silica.
Now if someone already has lung issues, such as some forms of COPD or have damaged the cilia from smoking, a mask would not be a bad idea.
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Post by mohs on Jun 22, 2022 20:04:10 GMT -5
eeeeekkkkkkkkk....
was smoking in the grind shop
and I don't think all that caffeine helped
either
plus there was some pretty late nights
when whatever didn't kill me
then
I'd wake up & go to work
guess things have changed
now they just refuse to work
its a hazard
so they choose
the other way
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Post by mohs on Jun 22, 2022 20:08:44 GMT -5
plus I have o thanks the good Lord he chose not to make my wallet fat butte I got great mucous & cilia  |
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ThomasT
has rocks in the head
Member since June 2022
Posts: 616
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Post by ThomasT on Jun 22, 2022 20:13:15 GMT -5
Once diagnosed your perspective tends to change on what level of exposure you have had (or shouldn't have had) to silica and other fibrous minerals. The US Geological Survey and the Australian Dept of Mines, Industry and Safety have an extensive list of the known hazardous siliceous and fibrous minerals that are worked in our industry to make beautiful stones for jewelry. Protection from exposure is the only sure bet against respiratory damage that cannot be repaired.
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markb
Cave Dweller 
Member since May 2022
Posts: 472 
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Post by markb on Jun 22, 2022 20:17:33 GMT -5
To be honest, I only wear a mask with material I know to be hazardous- like the copper bearing rocks. I use both geysers under the wheel, so I am using plenty of water. Do you know where you can you find a list of hazardous rocks? |
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markb
Cave Dweller
Member since May 2022
Posts: 472
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Post by markb on Jun 22, 2022 20:25:03 GMT -5
Great... now I need to get my hands on a Geiger counter... so expensive.... I've often been curious (more like worried) to know if any of my rocks are radioactive. Especially the ones from South/Central Utah. On a more thread related note... Supposedly, cutting/grinding wet should be sufficient in a ventilated space. However, I've started wearing an N95 (I don't use oil) respirator when I cut with my wet saw or grind with my flat lap. I know there is more to this than most people (including me) understand. I believe the risk of silicosis is dependent on particle size, particle shape, amount of exposure, etc. Did you put a mask on because you were feeling something physical with breathing, or just to be cautious? I think you have a point about it being more serious if you are exposed to lapidary several hours a day. |
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markb
Cave Dweller
Member since May 2022
Posts: 472
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Post by markb on Jun 22, 2022 20:26:18 GMT -5
I don't always use a mask, but I should. Ear and eye protection, on the other hand, I never skip out on. Can you show me a picture of you wearing your eye protection? |
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Post by vegasjames on Jun 22, 2022 20:29:34 GMT -5
To be honest, I only wear a mask with material I know to be hazardous- like the copper bearing rocks. I use both geysers under the wheel, so I am using plenty of water. Do you know where you can you find a list of hazardous rocks? There are lists that have been circulating on the internet rock boards. Much of what these lists claim though is pretty ridiculous. For instance, the claim the copper from copper ores is a hazard. In reality, it is no more dangerous than grinding quartz. The body actually requires copper for a variety of reasons such as formation of red blood cells and collagen and elastin. The small amounts of copper we would get exposed to, especially of very poorly absorbed carbonates, poses little risk. If it were as toxic as these lists claim I would have been dead a long time ago from copper poisoning. Copper ores are one of my favorite stones to cab and I have cabbed a lot of it. There is more of a risk from ingesting the toxic copper sulfate added to some products like Ensure.
Also keep in mind that copper levels are generally regulated by the body and displaced by zinc we get from diet and supplements.
Now Congo malachite has been an issue with people who cab and carve this for a living. Not from the copper though, but rather the arsenic in the Congo malachite. I found this out from the owners of a local shop that import a lot of worked malachite. They said there was a big problem with the workers developing arsenic poisoning.
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ThomasT
has rocks in the head
Member since June 2022
Posts: 616
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Post by ThomasT on Jun 22, 2022 20:35:58 GMT -5
For example, various serpentines and amphiboles have varieties of fibrous asbestos type fibers that no amount should be inhaled. They make beautiful stones for jewelry. There is no level of rock dust in the airways without health risks.
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Post by rockjunquie on Jun 22, 2022 20:43:57 GMT -5
To be honest, I only wear a mask with material I know to be hazardous- like the copper bearing rocks. I use both geysers under the wheel, so I am using plenty of water. Do you know where you can you find a list of hazardous rocks? I agree with vegasjames that a lot of lists are a little overblown, so take what you will from them. I did a search on RTH for "hazardous rocks" and came with quite a few posts. Here are a few, but you can find more. The big ones seem to be cinnabar, malachite, bumble bee jasper, tiffanystone- but there are more.
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Post by vegasjames on Jun 22, 2022 20:44:10 GMT -5
Great... now I need to get my hands on a Geiger counter... so expensive.... I've often been curious (more like worried) to know if any of my rocks are radioactive. Especially the ones from South/Central Utah. On a more thread related note... Supposedly, cutting/grinding wet should be sufficient in a ventilated space. However, I've started wearing an N95 (I don't use oil) respirator when I cut with my wet saw or grind with my flat lap. I know there is more to this than most people (including me) understand. I believe the risk of silicosis is dependent on particle size, particle shape, amount of exposure, etc. I have been digging at a uranium mine here in Nevada so I bought a Geiger counter. Found one brand new for under $100 on the Walmart website.
Yes, there are various aspects involved with silicosis. Mainly level or exposure at one time and those levels over time. Again, if you overwhelm the body's protective mechanisms then yes the silica can be a problem. And you are correct particle size plays a role as larger particles can be more difficult for the body to remove. Particle shape goes to amorphous vs. crystalline with crystalline being more of an issue. There is also form. Silica in the form of orthosilcic acid for example is essential to the body and none of us would exist without it. A loss of OA as we age also contributes to a lot of problems such as osteoporosis, osteoarthritis, osteopenia, osteomalacia, diverticulitis, emphysema, cartilage loss, nervous system problems, heart disease, increased risk of tendon and ligament problems, etc. Even wrinkles as OA is required for the formation of the structural proteins collagen, elastin and chondroitin, is essential for proper nervous system function, helps remove lead from the body and is responsible for the mineralization of bone. People can take all the calcium, magnesium and vitamin D they want. Without sufficient OA to put minerals in to bone those minerals will simply stay elsewhere in the body or be eliminated.
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ThomasT
has rocks in the head
Member since June 2022
Posts: 616
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Post by ThomasT on Jun 22, 2022 21:05:52 GMT -5
markb Personally, I would not be able to bear the weight of conscience to tell a young man or woman engaging in the lapidary arts (either as a hobbyist or professional) that it is ok to not wear proper respiratory protection whenever grinding and cutting stone. It is neither expensive nor difficult to protect your airways from airborne dust and mist while performing the various tasks. The risks are real, and the avoidance of the risk is pretty easy. Best regards to all!
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Post by mohs on Jun 22, 2022 21:10:13 GMT -5
Not sure how the Lord
Set me up the OA`s ?
It's these telomere`s
that don't go on for to
long
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Post by vegasjames on Jun 22, 2022 21:22:49 GMT -5
rockjunquie Do you know where you can you find a list of hazardous rocks? I agree with vegasjames that a lot of lists are a little overblown, so take what you will from them. I did a search on RTH for "hazardous rocks" and came with quite a few posts. Here are a few, but you can find more. The big ones seem to be cinnabar, malachite, bumble bee jasper, tiffanystone- but there are more.
Glad you brought up the Tiffany stone as that is another example of a very over hyper danger. Yes, Tiffany stones CAN contain beryllium, which is pretty toxic. The beryllium occurs in the form of bertranite, which is found in various locations around the world. The beryllium content of Tiffany stone as an ore is only 0.04-0.07%. What this means is that a vast majority of the ore does not even contain any beryllium. This is why beryllium is so expensive, it is not that common. Last I checked beryllium oxide was going for $600 a pound. And considering the traces of beryllium even in a piece of ore containing bertrandite, the amount of beryllium that a person could be exposed to would still be below a level of symptom forming toxicity.
I covered the hype over malachite in my other post.
Cinnabar is not as toxic as we are being led to believe as well. Cinnabar is mercury sulfide, not methylmercury, ethylmercury or elemental mercury, which pose much greater risks. Studies have shown that cinnabar is very poorly absobed, which is why it is often also used in Chinese medicine without issues. You are going to get more toxic mercury from eating a can of tuna or getting many vaccines. We also have to keep in mind other factors such as the short half life of mercury in the body and chelators that readily remove mercury from the body. So the topic is lot more complicated than these lists really provide.
Even arsenic is not really as toxic as most people think. Arsenic is readily displaced from the body by various things like phytates, calcium, etc. Toxicity really only occurs if the arsenic exposure is greater than the elimination rate leading to an accumulation, which requires a fair amount of arsenic. Several decades ago I was dealing with someone who was being deliberately poisoned with arsenic. Long story. When the dosing was not working due to the things that she was doing that displaces arsenic the people poisoning her kept upping the dose. Anyway, the plot was foiled and last I heard she was fine. I did a lot of research on arsenic at the time though once I figured out what was going on. I was surprised to find out that arsenic is even used as a preservative for apples we get from the store to consume. It is also common with brown rice and rice bran as the phytates from the rice bran bind the arsenic. Have never heard of a single case of arsenic poisoning from eating apples though except in Snow White.
A big part of the problem is that people tend to run with partial information. As an example, green tea is always touted for its health benefits because people who wish to push this look only at the antioxidant polyphenols in the tea. How often do they tell people though that many of these same polyphenols are tannins that can bind medications and some nutrients rendering them useless to the body? Same with coffee, which has numerous other things than adversely effect health. They also fail to mention the extremely high levels of fluoride found in green, oolong and black teas that promote hypothyroidism, which in turn increases the risk of things such as cancer and heart disease?
Or as another example, we so often here the health benefits of turmeric being touted due to the curcuminoids. What few people realize is that turmeric is also loaded with oxalic acid, which can bind nutrients, irritate the tissues and in some cases lead to kidney stones. So, it is a good thing that turmeric is poorly absorbed by the body. This is also why the traditional use of turmeric involves combining it with calcium sources, such as milk to make golden milk or curries. The calcium binds the oxalic acid forming an insoluble complex (calcium oxalate) preventing absorption.
By the same token, if I wanted to claim poison hemlock was healthy, I could tout the high vitamin C levels while ignoring the highly toxic alkaloids in the plant.
Point is, we need to look at the whole picture, not just a tiny portion and make claims based on that tiny fraction of the picture.
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hypodactylus
spending too much on rocks
Member since July 2021
Posts: 479
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Post by hypodactylus on Jun 22, 2022 21:23:00 GMT -5
Great... now I need to get my hands on a Geiger counter... so expensive.... I've often been curious (more like worried) to know if any of my rocks are radioactive. Especially the ones from South/Central Utah. On a more thread related note... Supposedly, cutting/grinding wet should be sufficient in a ventilated space. However, I've started wearing an N95 (I don't use oil) respirator when I cut with my wet saw or grind with my flat lap. I know there is more to this than most people (including me) understand. I believe the risk of silicosis is dependent on particle size, particle shape, amount of exposure, etc. _@hypodactylus Fid you put a mask on because you were feeling something physical with breathing, or just to be cautious? I think you have a point about it being more serious if you are exposed to lapidary several hours a day. Well, I started wearing a mask for a few reasons. One, I tried to do some research and figure out what was best. I decided that a mask was not necessary when doing my cutting/grinding wet. However, when I tried to have a civilized/educational conversation about it, some people would angrily reply to my professional data references with impassioned claims of "better safe than sorry". I respect other people's ability to do as they please, but it is interesting to see how people will selectively apply this line of thinking (do they wear a dust mask outside at all times? Do they wear helmets in the car?) Seeing as I am not a professional and somewhat ignorant on the topic, I continued to doubt myself and figured; why not wear a mask? Two, I could tell that I was inhaling some dust. After a session of grinding or cutting, I noticed some lung irritation and coughing. Sort of like a day out in the desert. Probably not enough to be a real problem, but preventable nonetheless. So, I decided to keep wearing the mask. I also started wearing a mask when cutting weeds or doing landscape work; helps cut down on the coughing and sneezing. I am a natural worrier, but I like to be educated and do things for a reason. This hobby has challenged that nature a bit, mostly because of my ignorance on certain topics. I try to avoid cinnabar. I am curious about radioactivity. I am conscious of silica dust. However, how much of that (if any) is realistic? Do I even understand the science supporting the effectiveness of the steps I take for mitigation? As vegasjames mentioned, I don't think we are exposed to enough of the right (wrong?) kind of dust to be concerned as hobbyists. That said, I'll probably stick to wearing a mask most of the time when I cut rock. Or when I do lots of weed cutting. Or maybe when I am riding an ATV on a dusty trail (if I can even get one on under the helmet). Mostly because I don't want to cough or sneeze so much. Anyhow, those are my reasons (or at least some of them). I think you will be fine either way as a hobbyist if you are keeping things wet and ventilated. That said; you do you! |
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Post by vegasjames on Jun 22, 2022 21:24:31 GMT -5
Not sure how the Lord Set me up the OA`s ? It's these telomere`s that don't go on for to long  OK, the telomere joke was a good one. |
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Post by Rockoonz on Jun 22, 2022 22:02:10 GMT -5
RockoonzCan you show me a picture of you wearing your eye protection? Yes. Bifocal ones that Harbor freight used to sell. When they discontinued them I got everything they had left at the store.  |
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markb
Cave Dweller
Member since May 2022
Posts: 472
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Post by markb on Jun 23, 2022 0:06:24 GMT -5
Rockoonz Can you show me a picture of you wearing your eye protection? Yes. Bifocal ones that Harbor freight used to sell. When they discontinued them I got everything they had left at the store. Can you please repost the picture? I can't view the previous one. Thanks! |
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Post by parfive on Jun 23, 2022 1:29:33 GMT -5
. . . do they wear a dust mask outside at all times? Interesting report last week on what cars are spitting out nowadays . . .
“Tyres are rapidly eclipsing the tailpipe as a major source of emissions from vehicles,” said Nick Molden, at Emissions Analytics, the leading independent emissions testing company that did the research. “Tailpipes are now so clean for pollutants that, if you were starting out afresh, you wouldn’t even bother regulating them.”
Car tyres produce vastly more particle pollution than exhausts, tests show
www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyres-produce-more-particle-pollution-than-exhausts-tests-show
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OK, the telomere joke was a good one.
