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Post by helens on Jun 29, 2012 22:23:28 GMT -5
I really am amazed at all the anger at the Supreme Court... your conservative Chief Justice is who upheld the law, he's on the Republican side. Why so mad?
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,466
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Post by Sabre52 on Jun 30, 2012 13:29:46 GMT -5
*L* Not mad at Roberts Helen but rather disappointed that he basically copped out and gave the federal government more power over our lives by essentially increasing their powers of taxation. One wonders what the government will try to force folks to buy next. What'll we have to buy next or be threatened with tax penalties?, solar panels from Solyndra? or windmills for power generation? organic carrots? *L*.....Mel
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Post by jakesrocks on Jun 30, 2012 14:45:06 GMT -5
Helen, I must repeat myself. The Congress and only the Congress has the power under the Constitution to put new taxes in effect. If Obama tries his "Executive Order" trick again, to put the new taxes in place, He will be in direct conflict with our Constitution. Immediate cause for impeachment. I hope he tries it. I would love to see him leave office in disgrace. With the Republicans holding power in Congress, all they need do is to refuse to put these new taxes, (at least 20 of them), in place. End of Obamacare. End of Obamatax.
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Post by helens on Jun 30, 2012 14:51:31 GMT -5
Helen, I must repeat myself. The Congress and only the Congress has the power under the Constitution to put new taxes in effect. If Obama tries his "Executive Order" trick again, to put the new taxes in place, He will be in direct conflict with our Constitution. Immediate cause for impeachment. I hope he tries it. I would love to see him leave office in disgrace. With the Republicans holding power in Congress, all they need do is to refuse to put these new taxes, (at least 20 of them), in place. End of Obamacare. End of Obamatax. What tax by executive order are you talking about Don? You say 'again', and I've not heard of such a tax. Did your taxes go up? Or are you talking about the Obamacare 'tax' that was already passed by Congress in 2010?
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Post by jakesrocks on Jun 30, 2012 15:13:25 GMT -5
Helen, read again. Did I say executive order to pass a tax ? I don't think so. He used his executive order to give legality to a couple million ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. A move which may prove to be his undoing. Even many of the Mexicans who have lived here legally for generations are pissed about that move. Those who have been on the immigration list for many years, trying to come here legally are pissed. And we will be watching this time for his illegal voters.
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ulstergeki
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since April 2012
Posts: 111
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Post by ulstergeki on Jun 30, 2012 17:17:40 GMT -5
Yep, nothing good has come from immigrants, i figure if everyone thats not native american gets off north america, we should be doing well, jobs for the real "americans". I think the question is, if it was as hard to move to the US a hundred years ago, think where we would be now, this idea that illegals get a free ride is simply bunk, they do the jobs others dont want to, pick up the trash roof our houses in 100+ weather, all while earning less and paying taxes for it while not getting the benefits of social security or any retirement. This country was built on the back of immigrants and it still is. A xenophobe will say differently,
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lparker
fully equipped rock polisher
Still doing too much for being retired!
Member since March 2008
Posts: 1,202
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Post by lparker on Jun 30, 2012 18:14:58 GMT -5
<He used his executive order to give legality to a couple million ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. > What did I miss here. The number I saw was 800,000. They have to prove they got here before they hit the age of 16. I belieive they have to prove they've been here 5 years They have to pay for the papers they get. They were forced to come here. Another thing I missed is the text of the executive order...can't find it. You don't suppose Obama is censoring the internet?
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ulstergeki
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since April 2012
Posts: 111
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Post by ulstergeki on Jun 30, 2012 18:18:47 GMT -5
lparker, sopa and pipa were fathered by republicans, i would be weary about them censoring the net haha, "oh an idea that doesnt fit into our world, its a terrorist plot, remove it!"
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Post by helens on Jun 30, 2012 19:18:13 GMT -5
Maybe Obama did that out of desperation to stop the bleeding of those illegals that are moving our farms to Mexico. He's trying to appeal to their kids to keep the workers here. Mexico has a less than 5% unemployment rate, and US farmers are moving over there in DROVES to open farms to be close to their employees. That means the price of our food goes up because more and more, our produce is being imported from Mexico... from the same growers we used to buy from in the USA. Why stay? The only farmers left in the USA will be GMO corporations who collect billions of dollars in Federal Subsidies. Small farmers get no subsidies, and their pickers got deported. How to stay in business? Farm in Mexico. And so they did. And so more and more you see 'Imported from Mexico' at the grocery stores. Unfortunately, the birds have flown the coop, and I don't think that Obama's measure will stop our bleeding and loss of farm or roof workers. It's way too late for that. The handful of roofing companies around here who can find LEGAL Mexican roofers can now charge 8x what they charged 7 years ago, and force homeowners to wait up to 2 years for roof repairs. God help us if we have a hurricane... ANYWHERE in the USA. The roofers were shut down because no american will climb on a roof to work on reflective surfaces in 95 degree 100% humidity environments at hard labor for 10 hours a day... at any price. They would die. Unfortunately, Obama's executive came too little too late for our farms AND our roofers. US Farms move to Mexico articles (google it yourself). No wonder all we can buy now that's USA grown are GMO's?: www.theworld.org/2010/12/an-american-farmer-in-mexico/www.cbsnews.com/2100-18563_162-4004958.htmlwww.reuters.com/article/2008/02/12/us-mexico-farms-idUSN1263599720080212www.glahr.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=214%3Aamerican-farmers-move-to-mexico&catid=1%3Alatest&Itemid=82&lang=en
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Post by helens on Jun 30, 2012 21:33:42 GMT -5
I googled the text for the executive order, and this is what I found.. :http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2011/05/10/text-of-obamas-speech-on-immigration/
I guess it's fair to say that Jose stole an american job tho
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Post by jakesrocks on Jun 30, 2012 22:05:18 GMT -5
Yup. No matter how you cut it, illegal is illegal. Some natural born American who came up the hard way, and studied just as hard as Jose, and earned the same kind of degrees as Jose, And worked in a laboratory helping to develop things equally as important as Jose did had his dreams crushed when he was replaced in the astronaut program by someone who was in this country illegally. What's fair about that ?
Helen, how many close friends have you known that lost their jobs to illegals ? From the things you write, not many would be my guess. You lived too sheltered of a life. I've seen many people loose good paying jobs to illegals. Jobs they had held for 15, 20 or more years. Damned good, hard working and responsible people. People who were damned good at their jobs. The reason they lost their jobs was greed. The greed of the owners of the businesses that my friends worked for. Owners who were willing to sacrifice skill and dedication for cheap labor.
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ulstergeki
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since April 2012
Posts: 111
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Post by ulstergeki on Jun 30, 2012 22:14:07 GMT -5
Jakes, no matter if they are illegal or not, they are still people thst need jobs, it really isnt their fault that they have to settle to do a job for less pay because they have slightly different lineage than someone that is white. I feel sorry for those who have lost their jobs, but pin that on the employer not the worker who is trying to better himself. Greed is indeed the driving force behind, so dont hate jose hate Greed.
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Post by jakesrocks on Jun 30, 2012 22:37:17 GMT -5
If these illegals were not here illegally in the first place, many of our skilled workers who were replaced by these same illegals would have jobs instead of unemployment lines, food stamps and welfare. There is a guest worker program in place to fill those non skilled jobs you speak of.
If the illegals who have skills need work, let them wait in line with the people in their own countries who are trying to come here legally and honestly. Or let them go to work in their own countries for American companies who have moved their manufacturing plants out of our country. Companies such as Fleetwood Enterprises, the worlds largest travel trailer and motor home. manufacturer. The same Fleetwood who closed their plants in and around Riverside, California. Thereby putting well over a thousand workers out of a job. Next time those of you rich enough to afford big, fancy motor homes remember that the new Fleetwood motor home is built entirely in Mexico, using chassis and engines made in Mexico with Chinese parts.
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ulstergeki
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since April 2012
Posts: 111
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Post by ulstergeki on Jun 30, 2012 22:44:59 GMT -5
Yep completely missed my point, have a goodnight, you can't argue on the internet, everyone ends up losing
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,466
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Post by Sabre52 on Jun 30, 2012 22:45:08 GMT -5
*S* I suppose it's always easy to feel charitable about giving away American jobs to illegals as long as it's not your own job of course. Strange that other countries ( Including Mexico that enforces theirs in quite a strict manner, often a violent manner when it comes to central Americans) enforce their laws about illegal immigration yet we are not allowed to . Unfortunately, as we've discussed here before it's not just the jobs illegals take from Americans, many of which are those entry level jobs teens or the unskilled often used to get but are now denied. I myself worked a lot of those low paying jobs as a kid and in school. Probably couldn't get them now days. It's also the overburdening of our welfare systems, schools, hospitals, jails, courts etc. It's also the increase in crime and gangs. And it's also the crowding of our highways with crappy uninsured, often drunk drivers. Besides that, there's just flat out the increase in population that causes more crowding of our cities and highways. Especially since having partial support by our own government and coming from a breeder mindset, these folks have a lot of kids all of which increase demands for services etc. Lets face it, it would be nice to accept every unskilled needy person the world has but the country is broke and in debt. We really do not need a few million folks from other countries when we cannot afford to take good care of citizens, including Hispanic citizens and properly naturalized citizens, who have contributed their labor and paid into the systems all their lives. The amount of good stuff to go around is finite after all and stealing the stuff from those who earned it and giving it to those who have broken the law just ain't right.....Mel
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Post by jakesrocks on Jun 30, 2012 22:49:51 GMT -5
Yep completely missed my point, have a goodnight, you can't argue on the internet, everyone ends up losing No, as a matter of fact, I didn't miss your point. I just feel more sorry for our own skilled workers who are loosing their jobs to illegal workers who have no legal right to be in this country in the first place.
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Post by johnjsgems on Jun 30, 2012 23:43:04 GMT -5
If Jose was born in the US he is an US citizen under current law. I think the proposal is to make illegal kids legal. I guess it isn't relevant but anybody that wants to see government subsidized programs at their finest should take a drive through Ship Rock, NM. The Navajo Nation doesn't have casinos apparently. Ship Rock consists largely of government built shacks and an abundance of drunken citizens begging for money. Give people a place to live and an allowance so they have no incentive to work and the result is obvious in Ship Rock. I can't wait until more Americans are dependent on the government. By the way, I'm a son of a LEGAL immigrant and married to another.
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Post by helens on Jul 1, 2012 0:28:29 GMT -5
Don, I was being sarcastic, it says right in the article that Jose was born in California. John caught that fast.
You mention Fleetwood Enterprises... so you are saying that like the food farms, they probably hired illegals to reduce their costs to compete with OTHER foreign imports, and then when their employees got kicked out, they followed their employees to their country... just like our farms did?
This proves that Mexicans are the bad guys? It is 'free market', the one Republicans respect and defend. The right to hire and fire who they want with no loyalty.
Why didn't those Corporations with 15-20 year employees stand by their employees? THAT was Ulstergeki's point. Money rules Loyalty in big business. Why do only small business care about their employees, yet it's big business you support? You blame the guy willing to work instead of the company who FIRED your friend after 20 years of loyalty?
You said 1000 people lost their jobs. Had the Republicans not gone nuts throwing out their illegals, would it be fair to say that those 1000 CITIZENS would not have lost their jobs, because the factory DID NOT HAVE TO MOVE?
That's like blaming the garbageman for letting your wife throws out your favorite fishing pole. Who did the throwing? It's the garbageman's fault for taking it away?
That's happened nationwide... employers moving their entire business to the cheap labor. That's the cheap labor's fault, or the Corporations, who choose the cheap labor over long term employees who gave their lives working for them?
The same corporations buying your votes with their propaganda to justify FIRING people for profit? The same corporations that are 'people' can now buy politicians to give them farm and oil subsidies with our tax dollars, and after 8 YEARS of Bush Tax Cuts and record profits, hired NO ONE to the point of 10% US Unemployment? Yah. Vote for them. How many jobs have I seen lost to illegals, not a single one. HOWEVER, Florida is very far away from where illegals enter the USA. They come here because they HAVE a job already. And they don't take jobs from citizens. No one wants to be a roofer or orange picker in Florida. We're SUFFERING here because our food prices have skyrocketed since many of our farms left.
So we don't relate to illegals in Florida like you do. They do a job no one else can do. And when they stopped coming, many of our businesses move to Mexico, taking their LEGAL jobs with them. We have real needs for those illegals, who provide skilled labor in HIGHLY skilled, but low paying (food and roofing) jobs.
If they paid fair wages for orange/tomato pickers in Florida, they'd have to quadruple the cost of orange juice and tomatoes to YOU. No US farm could compete with Mexican/Costa Rican imports then.
And THIS is the REASON the USA fought the Civil War.
The biggest irony being that Abe Lincoln, the FOUNDER of the Republican Party, freed the black slaves that the South needed to farm. All men are created equal, and so the Republican party killed Democrats to ensure that black farm workers ceased to work for free. Don't get me wrong here, I am NOT saying that the slaves shouldn't have been freed.
Today is not the same situation, but once again, farmers get the shaft. Americans do not want to pick a dumptruck load of oranges per day for $100. Americans who try would make $2 for an 8 hour day of back and health breaking labor because they DO NOT KNOW what they are DOING, and can't live on that $2 a day spending a few YEARS learning HOW to do it like a professional Mexican migrant farm worker can.
Crops are paid BY THE BUSHEL. If you can't fill a bushel as fast as the Mexican, you make 1/100 what he makes. Good LUCK finding kids willing and able to do that.
And today, the Republican party want to take away the illegals. Cripple our FOOD supply, and you bring the enemy to its knees. EVERYONE knows that. Therefore, we get Corporate GMOs, and we want to be RID of the farm workers... faster capitulation.
HERE, in Florida, the illegals are hurting no one, and taking no jobs. The economy actually depended on them. They HAVE no route to citizenship, or they'd ALL do that. Why do they have no path to citizenship? Think on that.
This time, instead of WAR, employers/farmers move their businesses to Mexico, and there are only a few holdouts left.
I think there are still farms in South Florida and orange groves still employing illegals here. Maybe this measure will help them keep their workers. If not, learn not to like Orange Juice anymore, because just about every sip you take was handled by an illegal, and if they keep leaving, you'll be drinking Mexican Orange Juice, handled by a legal Mexican from a former US employer.
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Post by helens on Jul 1, 2012 6:33:07 GMT -5
If Jose was born in the US he is an US citizen under current law. I think the proposal is to make illegal kids legal. I guess it isn't relevant but anybody that wants to see government subsidized programs at their finest should take a drive through Ship Rock, NM. The Navajo Nation doesn't have casinos apparently. Ship Rock consists largely of government built shacks and an abundance of drunken citizens begging for money. Give people a place to live and an allowance so they have no incentive to work and the result is obvious in Ship Rock. I can't wait until more Americans are dependent on the government. By the way, I'm a son of a LEGAL immigrant and married to another. I don't think ANYONE should be dependent on the Gov't unless they paid in... but I don't think it's fair to compare native americans to anyone else. The natives didn't choose to live on reservations, which used to be the worst land the US Gov't could give, the land no settlers wanted. They once owned ALL the land that was stolen from them, and that welfare level compensation somehow doesn't seem remotely fair no matter what they get for free today. Not when you consider that by rights, the Navaho could ask for 2-3 states worth of land back, since they never got paid for it in the first place. By law, eminent domain requires fair value paid when the gov't seizes private property. Also by Federal Law, Illegals can get NO Federal benefits, only state and local benefits, and that's up to the state/county. They work, they provide fake social security numbers, and then they lose any chance at a tax refund or social security that they paid into. This fattens our treasury at no cost. The only thing I know of that they can benefit from is if they have a catastrophic emergency and go to the Hospital... something they don't do because right after they get treated, they get arrested and put on a bus back to Mexico. Illegals in Florida who try to send their kids to school get their kids deported. Although with Obama's Executive Order, they won't deport those kids anymore? Not sure how that helps, the parent who tries to register the kids gets deported and their kids can stay? That's why Mexican migrants in Florida have their kids working in fields with them. That's why Jose was picking alongside his parents UNTIL he was 12 years old. Those Mexicans bring their 4 year olds out in the field to start training them how to pick, it's a HARD and very skilled job you almost have to learn from childhood to do fast. It took us 2 HOURS of almost falling out of an orange tree to get 1/2 a bushel of oranges in my friend's backyard (they don't grow in 1 big truck sized clump per tree). I learned the value of Mexican farm pickers in my first 5 minutes. Per the rates I was told, I'd have made $.25 for my 2 hours, and my clothes were ruined, I had twigs in my hair, bugs down my back and sweated like a pig, and stopped because I thought I would throw up from heat stroke. And I used to climb trees like a monkey, so that was NOT the new part for me. Picking oranges is a HIGH SKILL job, they grow all spread out across a 20' radius and are all widely spaced at the TOP of the trees, and should be compensated higher than a welder by the hour. But who'd buy 1 cup of orange juice for $35? Mexicans don't send their kids to school for the most part, which is sad. I'm talking about Florida, not anywhere else. I keep reading about all these Illegals getting free schools, free medical and even free Welfare and I think... how? Here, they take their kid to school and them and their kid get hauled to the immigration bus to Mexico. If they tried to take their kids to a doctor, they get hauled off in the immigration bus. How are any of them getting ANY benefits where you guys are? The last 6 years have KILLED our economy because they took them all away the second they show their faces at any public place. It's been the craziest 6 years, and it all STARTED when they started deporting the illegals.
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Post by johnjsgems on Jul 1, 2012 7:52:45 GMT -5
Helen, I don't think the Navajo got a fair deal. I was trying to point out what happens when people are provided subsistence without any motivation to strive (USSR comes to mind also but I didn't drive through there in a 40 foot motor home being swarmed by drunken beggars). I worked for a small rural school district in CA. We had apricot and peach orchards in the area. Every year at harvest time the migrants would bring their kids to school. The district had to hire a Spanish speaking teacher to teach them for the several weeks they were there. I was the maintenance supervisor and had to set up a classroom and the transportation dept. had to reroute buses to pick them up. The school district could not ask citizenship questions. In CA most of education funding comes from property taxes. I heard on the news a few days ago the four largest illegal populations are CA, FL, TX, and NY. As long as businesses can hire cheap illegal labor they will. The problem is the lack of enforcement of immigration laws. I heard also in CA anyway illegals are heading back south in large numbers because there is no work.
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