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Post by jakesrocks on Jul 1, 2012 8:08:14 GMT -5
Quote>>You mention Fleetwood Enterprises... so you are saying that like the food farms, they probably hired illegals to reduce their costs to compete with OTHER foreign imports, and then when their employees got kicked out, they followed their employees to their country... just like our farms did? Read more: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/index.cgi?board=polit&action=display&thread=53466&page=3#ixzz1zNJO5ozdHelen, I worked for them for 9 years in the design shop. All were white Americans in that building. But if you went right across the parking lot to the travel trailer building, only a handful could speak more than a few words of English. Same went for their fiberglass plant and motor home plant. My guess would be that 3 things made them move to Mexico. #1, California was taxing them to death. #2 less strict safety requirements. And #3 People in Mexico would work for 1/4 of what people in California could, and make a decent living. This is California we're speaking of Helen. A safe harbor state for illegals. They only deport illegals who commit the worst of crimes. Even petty illegals drug dealers get slapped on the hand and turned back out onto the streets to sell more drugs. Compete with Foreign imports ? Motor homes and travel trailers ? I don't think so. During the 9 years I worked there, I developed hundreds of prototype parts for them, only to watch my parts being shipped to China to be mass produced.
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grayfingers
Cave Dweller
Member since November 2007
Posts: 4,575
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Post by grayfingers on Jul 1, 2012 8:34:04 GMT -5
Our country would not have become the great nation we are/were without the immigrants who brought to this land the initiative, knowledge and cultural diversity that comprised the ingredients for the great melting pot. Without the huddled masses that arrived here, America would never have become the land of opportunity it has been. While we are often derided for our flaws, we have done a lot of good in this world through the years.
As noted, Jose Hernandez is an anchor baby, and thus a citizen. His parents were undocumented workers, 50 years ago. Though times have changed and we now need to know who is here for numerous reasons such as national security, we still have one of the most liberal immigration policies of any developed country. In my view, multiculturalism is the real threat that is replacing common sense with feelings. We are a First World nation rapidly becoming a Third World nation in part because many illegal immigrants coming here are uneducated, unskilled, and extremely poor, which causes them to become part of the welfare state. This is championed and defended by some as needed diversity, but they disregard the melting pot.
A house divided against itself cannot stand. What made America a great nation is many peoples from different lands joining together to become one nation. The immigrants who built America wanted to become fellow patriots and Americans by learning our language and assimilating into our culture. President Teddy Roosevelt said, "The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities." Roosevelt also said that either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all." In 1915, while speaking to a new group of naturalized citizens, President Woodrow Wilson said, "You cannot become thorough Americans if you think of yourselves in groups. America does not consist of groups. A man who thinks of himself as belonging to a particular national group in America has not yet become an American."
While Jose Hernandez is indeed a great example of someone fulfilling their potential thanks to his initiative and the opportunities afforded a citizen, it seems even he does not comprehend or appreciate that he is an American. In 2008, in one of several interviews with the Mexican media, Hernandez promised to take a Mexican flag to space—and lamented the fact that he couldn't wear the Mexican flag as a shoulder patch: "They don't let me put on the Mexican flag because I joined as an American astronaut, but I'm going to take the Mexican flag." In De Campesino a Astronaut (From Peasant to Astronaut) [September 18, 2009]. Hernandez was asked point blank "Which (of the two, U.S. or Mexico) do you consider your fatherland?"
Hernandez answered unequivocally:
"I feel more Mexican than American. I am from California because I was born in the summer, but half of my siblings were born in La Piedad, Michoacan."
Hernandez happened to have been born in the U.S., but he identifies with Mexico, despite the fact that he owes his professional success (and paid trip to space) to the United States.
This is an example of The American Dream?
I am all for legal immigration. I favor guest worker programs that offer a path to citizenship. Citizens should get first priority for jobs, bring in guest workers for those jobs "we won't do". I don't see the problem with encouraging immigration, but done legally.
Mexico has a rather tough immigration policy, and yet we are portrayed as the hard-liners.
Under the Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony, punishable by up to two years in prison. Immigrants who are deported and attempt to re-enter can be imprisoned for 10 years. Visa violators can be sentenced to six-year terms. Mexicans who help illegal immigrants are considered criminals.
The law also says Mexico can deport foreigners who are deemed detrimental to “economic or national interests,” violate Mexican law, are not “physically or mentally healthy” or lack the “necessary funds for their sustenance” and for their dependents.
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Post by johnjsgems on Jul 1, 2012 9:40:40 GMT -5
Grayfingers, you make too much sense. If the US would adopt and enforce Mexico's immigration laws we would have no illegal immigration. And Don, I won't apologize for my "fancy RV". I worked hard (AC/Refrigeration) for 30 years mostly in Palm Springs and mostly on the rooftop to afford the first motor home. After retiring and living in it for a year we traded it for a used 40 footer. .99 percent interest and $400 a month house payment only I have to buy tires and diesel for my house.
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Post by jakesrocks on Jul 1, 2012 10:03:24 GMT -5
Nobody's asking you to apologize for your motor home John. You worked hard to afford it, and you're a legal citizen. I'm sorry if I came across as sounding like I expected an apology from anyone who owns an RV. I was just pointing out that the largest maker of RV's in the world no longer builds it's west coast RV's in the U.S. I can't speak for their east coast plants. I don't know if they're still building in the U.S.
Before I left Fleetwood and moved to S.D., they had teamed up with the largest European RV manufacturer. A German company. They shipped a top of the line German RV to the design shop in Ca., for us to pick apart. Ever see an RV with a spiral stairway up to the second story bedrooms ? That German machine put ours to shame in every aspect.
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Post by helens on Jul 1, 2012 14:25:59 GMT -5
Very interesting posts, and I appreciate all the views. If I'm reading this correctly, I don't think any of us are all that far apart in how we think. If the same Mexican family comes to a farm and works every year during the planting and harvest for 30 years, they should become citizens? They earned their way by putting into our system over that time, benefiting this nation by keeping the cost of food down, keeping the price of roof repair and replacement down so US citizens can afford to not live in the rain after a hurricane? If you do a quick google, it is currently IMPOSSIBLE for an illegal to become a citizen of the USA. They have to go back to their country, wait years, decades maybe to apply, the cost is prohibitive, and they may or may not get accepted in their lifetimes. In the meantime, they can't work, so we're back to the drawing board. Here's a nice explanation of that: thehistoricpresent.wordpress.com/2010/07/07/truth-v-myth-illegal-immigrants-must-be-stopped/So should we not want them to become legal and legally pay into the system if they ALREADY have a job (criminal illegals should be deported immediately with no recourse ever)? So if we are all in agreement that those currently working highly skilled jobs in the US should become citizens, are we all in agreement that rules should be changed so they can be?
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Post by jakesrocks on Jul 1, 2012 15:08:29 GMT -5
Helen, what you failed to say is that it's much harder to get into the U.S. >> LEGALLY<<.
Employers should be required to advertise these highly skilled jobs you speak of for at least 1 month. If they are unable to find a qualified U.S. citizen to fill that job, then, and only then should they be allowed to bring in a guest worker to fill the job. If said employer is found to have violated these simple rules, 1st violation should mean a 1 month suspension of their business license. 2nd violation, permanent revocation of their business license. See how quick businesses start following the rules. See how quick they start putting real legal citizens back to work. See how quick the flow of illegals across our borders slows to a trickle.
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Post by helens on Jul 1, 2012 15:22:47 GMT -5
Helen, what you failed to say is that it's much harder to get into the U.S. >> LEGALLY<<. Employers should be required to advertise these highly skilled jobs you speak of for at least 1 month. If they are unable to find a qualified U.S. citizen to fill that job, then, and only then should they be allowed to bring in a guest worker to fill the job. If said employer is found to have violated these simple rules, 1st violation should mean a 1 month suspension of their business license. 2nd violation, permanent revocation of their business license. See how quick businesses start following the rules. See how quick they start putting real legal citizens back to work. See how quick the flow of illegals across our borders slows to a trickle. That's a very logical requirement (employers MUST advertise in the US for 1 month before allowing a guest worker to fill it), and I am 100% in agreement with you there. The more I think about your suggestion, the more brilliant I think it is!!! You should write your Congressman about submitting a proposal like that!!! AND to be fair, those 'guest' workers who have worked with the same company, even if seasonally, SHOULD have a PATH TO CITIZENSHIP with the work permit. Farms can start advertising a month before harvests, and test out new applicants to see if they can do the job before it becomes critical. As far as I know, there's not even a 'work permit' situation permissible, or businesses would not risk shutting down to hire those illegals anyway. Your penalties sound incredibly mild AND FAIR. Um... slow to a trickle? Mexico right now has a 5% unemployment rate. WHY would they come here for our 9%? Even without deportation they are going home in droves. We're trying to KEEP some of them here. I fully understand however why California or Arizona might want them to go away. If they implemented your suggestion, that may make everyone happy.
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Post by jakesrocks on Jul 1, 2012 15:38:23 GMT -5
We're trying to keep them ? You got a mouse in your pocket Helen ? If you want to keep them, why don't you house them, feed them, pay for their medical needs and schooling ?
You've said before that the working illegals pay taxes with no return. I contend that for every illegal who is paying taxes, there are 10 who are being payed under the table with no taxes being paid what so ever. That makes 1 illegal paying for medical care, etc, etc, for a total of 11 illegals.
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Post by jakesrocks on Jul 1, 2012 16:06:42 GMT -5
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Post by helens on Jul 1, 2012 16:28:57 GMT -5
We're trying to keep them ? You got a mouse in your pocket Helen ? If you want to keep them, why don't you house them, feed them, pay for their medical needs and schooling ? You've said before that the working illegals pay taxes with no return. I contend that for every illegal who is paying taxes, there are 10 who are being payed under the table with no taxes being paid what so ever. That makes 1 illegal paying for medical care, etc, etc, for a total of 11 illegals. Who pays for their housing, medical and schooling now? They do. They work, like every other american, and earn money to pay for those things. No one is paying it for them now. In the case of UNEMPLOYED Immigrants, maybe they go to ER for free, like UNEMPLOYED Americans do. They cannot get food stamps, they cannot get welfare, and they get no SS. Paid under the table? Maybe they do that in Ca, but no business here would do that for the simple reason that they could not expense their employees and would then have to pay taxes on those salaries as INCOME. There's no business HERE stupid enough to want to pay more taxes or be in a higher tax bracket. That under the table business may be a California phenomenon? Or did the mouse in YOUR pocket tell you that:)?
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Post by helens on Jul 1, 2012 16:35:26 GMT -5
Funny, those aren't government statistics, it's a paid for right wing propaganda site. How do I know that? Simple. NO ADS. The Koch brothers can buy a website outright and fund it themselves. WHO pays for your 'partriotproject' site? No one. No one to answer to. Now go check out EVERY SINGLE other website that isn't a private business site and see if they have ads. Go LOOK UP WHO OWNS THAT SITE, because I didn't see it on the site, do you? Here's a site paid for by the Annenberg public policy center (University of Pennsylvania), who puts the lie to your numbers above: www.factcheck.org/2009/04/cost-of-illegal-immigrants/
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Post by jakesrocks on Jul 1, 2012 17:06:01 GMT -5
No Helen. No mouse in my pocket. After retiring from the Navy, the first job I took was in a Korean run liquor store. Half of my wages were under the counter. 2 illegals working for him were paid completely under the table. I needed the job at the time, so I kept my mouth shut. As do thousands of employers of illegals all over the U.S., including Florida. Do you think those landscape workers are paying taxes ? Most of those types of business employ 2 or 3 legitimate workers. The rest are classed as day workers, even though they are working full time. No taxes are payeed on those " day workers ". It's called cooking the books. Sort of like what Obama and his cohorts did with Obamacare.
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Post by helens on Jul 1, 2012 17:20:15 GMT -5
No Helen. No mouse in my pocket. After retiring from the Navy, the first job I took was in a Korean run liquor store. Half of my wages were under the counter. 2 illegals working for him were paid completely under the table. I needed the job at the time, so I kept my mouth shut. As do thousands of employers of illegals all over the U.S., including Florida. Do you think those landscape workers are paying taxes ? Most of those types of business employ 2 or 3 legitimate workers. The rest are classed as day workers, even though they are working full time. No taxes are payeed on those " day workers ". It's called cooking the books. Sort of like what Obama and his cohorts did with Obamacare. Well some small businesses who take in cash receipts may get away with that, because they do their own paperwork and tax filing, so they just under report their income and then don't report their employees. So you are right about that. I guess businesses do that here too, but they wouldn't need to hire illegals. Again, never seen an illegal get a job a citizen can do. Our lawn guys are all white and always have been, and that's not because we wouldn't hire a landscape company that hired illegals, we aren't racist, and we don't think its fair that they cannot become legal. Go back to your brilliant idea about requiring employers to advertise for 30 days for an american before being allowed to hire through a work visa. You just completely dropped it, but it really IS a great idea. You don't think you came up with a great idea because I agreed with it:)?
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Post by jakesrocks on Jul 1, 2012 17:47:03 GMT -5
Actually, if it were up to me, I would extend the advertising time to a full 6 months. If a company desperately needs someone with specialized skills, they'll hire a citizen, rather than put off qualified citizens until the month is up, and they can get away with hiring a "guest worker".
And now for a couple hours of NHRA Drag Racing. Much more important to me than arguing with a brick wall.
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,466
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Post by Sabre52 on Jul 1, 2012 20:06:18 GMT -5
Another interesting figure is abut 23-24 billion dollars a year is taken from the American economy by immigrants from Mexico and goes home to Mexico where it is spent to boost their economy. That's money that is not being spent supporting American businesses and jobs while in turn they most likely take much more from our resources than they contribute in taxes. Just look at schooling alone. It costs a lot per child, they often have special needs for bilingual ed etc, and they often have large families...Mel
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Post by jakesrocks on Jul 1, 2012 20:54:33 GMT -5
And crap out another little latch key every 9 or 10 months.
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Post by johnjsgems on Jul 1, 2012 20:56:05 GMT -5
Here is an idea. Take the lazy (majority white people) Americans on welfare and require them to go to work or learn a trade after 6 months on welfare. Let unwed mothers work part time. If the only jobs are dish washers, gardeners, bus boys so be it. By the way, when I worked Palm Springs area I once needed to mauil something while working in Indio (huge Hispanic population. The Post Office had a line out the door and down the street. Almost all were iillegals mailing money orders home. Apparently (as Mel said) they send most of their money home to Mexico. If they work with forged documents and have taxes withheld I somehow can't feel bad if they can't get a refund. They are breaking the law. If there really are jobs that Americans can't do maybe they should bring back the Bracero program.
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,466
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Post by Sabre52 on Jul 1, 2012 22:15:56 GMT -5
*L* There are no jobs Americans can't do but many jobs Americans won't do. We now live in an entitlement society where lots of folks ( about half the population of the US now) get lots of good stuff, often without working at all, so why work a tough job. By the way, I worked for the Ag Dept for years and fruit and vegetable pickers make good money. I got teased about being the lowest paid guy in the strawberry fields when I was out there doing standards work *L*. But, Ag work is incredibly hard. I lasted one day picking cucumbers. That one day was a very good lesson as to why I needed to stay in school *L*.
My dad was a depression kid and he picked grapes and citrus, built orange crates, stacked sugar sacks and was an oil derrick monkey. The jobs according to him were hard and paid poorly but he learned how to do those jobs because, if he did not make money, he and his several brothers and sisters would have starved. This carried through into his college years at first Fresno State, then Berkeley where again he worked at crappy jobs to get through college.
I had it better partly because of his efforts but also because I worked cannery jobs, custodial jobs, warehouse jobs etc, most for minimum wages, when I was in school.
Now, the folks in this most spoiled of generations, don't want entry level jobs. They expect careers at six figure wages, without of course having to work for it and having no real life work experience. If mommy and daddy don't pay the full amount for college, they borrow themselves silly and then whine about it when they have to pay back their debt. They won't do the work illegals do because they are soft handed wussies and mommy and daddy enabled them by buying them everything, the government and banks enabled them by giving them free money with cheap loans, and the various government doles will give them so much free crap that why should they work at all. The welfare generation doesn't even have to go through school. They just have kids with whoever will impregnate them or father a ton of kids and leach of the money their baby momma gets along with all the other freebies they can stand in line for. Then when the well runs dry, they say " Gosh, the old people have all the money. Lets vote for asshole politicians who will steal the money from those who earned it and give more to us."
I'm with John, Take away the free stuff. Take away all the economic incentive to "not work" Friggin work or starve. My dad once said stacking sugar sacks twenty feet high was miserable work but it sure beat an empty belly. With enough incentive to do work, Americans could learn to take the jobs now occupied by illegals and all the money, spending, taxes, services etc would stay right here at home . This is not just a US problem too. Immigrants drain something like 300 billion a year from developed nations and send it home to their own countries......Mel
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Post by helens on Jul 1, 2012 23:41:44 GMT -5
Mel, it's hard for me to disagree with much you said in the last note about our lazy society. Today's kids ARE lazier than past generations, and I don't know why.
Although the idea that people can go pick oranges is a problem because they don't know how to do it quickly, and would not make enough money to buy food, while the crops started falling and rotting on the ground. That isn't a wage job, it's a per bushel job. Specialty Ag workers are fast as hell at what they do, and they make a lot of money doing it because of their skill, not because of the base wage. Skill you acquire over time. Motivation, desire and hunger means nothing, you still can't pick faster.
As for immigrants sending money home, they do that too, how does that differ from us sending our money off to China, Korea and India with our trade deficits?
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Post by johnjsgems on Jul 2, 2012 8:03:52 GMT -5
Hunger can be a great motivation to work harder. Work faster/better and make more. I once went two days without eating because I was too proud to admit I had run out of money and food and waited for pay day. It never happened again. Cut out the hand outs and you would find Americans learning to work for a change. I'm guessing during the great depression you didn't see illegals doing the "jobs Americans wouldn't do".
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