jamesp
Cave Dweller 
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,618
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Post by jamesp on Nov 21, 2019 15:34:20 GMT -5
Thanks for passing this on rockbiter. Switching to silicon carbide 4-8-16 ate those PVC barrels in a jiffy. The HPDE is the way to go. And way easier to build if you only master the weld. practice on short sections of pipe first. Took me 2 practice runs and had it down. I have done about 15 full circumference welds since. Need to figure out how to weld a flat plate to a pipe to save buying an end cap. Tricky to do on a flat teflon skillet. Since this thread is stickied I thought it was a good idea to let people know. I was frustrated when I started collecting supplies to make pvc barrels only to then find out there was a better way to go. Still some good info here so I don't think it should be unstickied, but perhaps updated. Suites me if the PVC gets unstuck but PVC is fine for many applications. 6" and 8" would last 3 years full-time running down to SIC 46 which is fine for many. They last much longer if running SiC 60 and finer abrasives. The HPDE is just plain tough, wear resistant, impact and crush resistant. You know it when you handle them. Both have those quick remove and easy to clean Fernco caps. |
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Post by 1dave on Nov 23, 2019 5:05:09 GMT -5
Thanks for passing this on rockbiter. Switching to silicon carbide 4-8-16 ate those PVC barrels in a jiffy. The HPDE is the way to go. And way easier to build if you only master the weld. practice on short sections of pipe first. Took me 2 practice runs and had it down. I have done about 15 full circumference welds since. Need to figure out how to weld a flat plate to a pipe to save buying an end cap. Tricky to do on a flat teflon skillet. Since this thread is stickied I thought it was a good idea to let people know. I was frustrated when I started collecting supplies to make pvc barrels only to then find out there was a better way to go. Still some good info here so I don't think it should be unstickied, but perhaps updated. I placed an edit in the first post. Is that enough, or does it need a major overhaul? |
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,618
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Post by jamesp on Nov 23, 2019 8:44:11 GMT -5
Since this thread is stickied I thought it was a good idea to let people know. I was frustrated when I started collecting supplies to make pvc barrels only to then find out there was a better way to go. Still some good info here so I don't think it should be unstickied, but perhaps updated. I placed an edit in the first post. Is that enough, or does it need a major overhaul? You may want to add this Dave. The wear resulting from 4 years of rolling coarse grit SiC 30 and 46. sch 40 6 inch When rolling with coarser bulk SiC this barrel would have probably lasted only a year. This type of wear was the reason for the HDPE barrels. Telling that the coarser SiC is likely shaping rocks faster too.   |
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Post by 1dave on Nov 23, 2019 10:58:49 GMT -5
I placed an edit in the first post. Is that enough, or does it need a major overhaul? You may want to add this Dave. The wear resulting from 4 years of rolling coarse grit SiC 30 and 46. sch 40 6 inch When rolling with coarser bulk SiC this barrel would have probably lasted only a year. This type of wear was the reason for the HDPE barrels. Telling that the coarser SiC is likely shaping rocks faster too. The top photo is a PVC barrel held up to the light showing through the thinner parts where the greatest wear has occurred over 4 years using SiC 30 & 46. the bottom photo without the light. Time? 24/7 365 days/year? Using finer SiC or AO instead it would have lasted longer? - but much less grinding of the rocks. right? Perhaps it is time to start a new thread - 2020 Ultimate Rock Tumbling Information
Part A - The Equipment
Part B - The Rocks
Part C - The Process |
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Post by 1dave on Nov 23, 2019 19:59:14 GMT -5
A. What kind of rocks
1. value of rocks
2. Mos hardness
3. initial size
B. Desired outcome
1. shiny rocks on a shelf or in a fish bowl
2. Jewelry to be worn
C. Resources available for the project
1. Amount of money
2. Amount of time
3. Amount of material
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whyofquartz
spending too much on rocks
So, Africa is smaller than I expected...
Member since December 2019
Posts: 318
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Post by whyofquartz on Dec 13, 2019 11:18:02 GMT -5
I have done some quick searching and no one seems to have asked, what if you got a can imitation Rhinoliner (also called rockgard) from the auto body world and tumbled that in there till it cured to seal your gaps, reinforce your joints and reinforce the whole barrel. now you would have to mask the neck and lid to keep it from sealing entirely.
I should clarify for those not in the know, RhinoLiner is a 3 part resin consisting of a base, a hardener or activator, and a fiber(if i remember correctly, it has been a while since i saw it mixed). the three are mixed and you get a super hard coating. you may also be able to do this with plasti-dip like for tool handles but i think that stuff is spongy and porous. flex seal may work but i am unsure if that comes in a non-aerosol , non-tape form
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whyofquartz
spending too much on rocks
So, Africa is smaller than I expected...
Member since December 2019
Posts: 318
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Post by whyofquartz on Dec 13, 2019 15:04:16 GMT -5
Thanks for passing this on rockbiter . Switching to silicon carbide 4-8-16 ate those PVC barrels in a jiffy. The HPDE is the way to go. And way easier to build if you only master the weld. practice on short sections of pipe first. Took me 2 practice runs and had it down. I have done about 15 full circumference welds since. Need to figure out how to weld a flat plate to a pipe to save buying an end cap. Tricky to do on a flat teflon skillet. if you can find a metal shop you may be able to get a short, maybe 1", section of black steel pipe that you could use as a welding iron by placing it in your skillet and placing a slightly over-sized piece of cap material on it. I may be able to get you just the scrap metal you need actually, I will have to go home and take some measurements. |
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,618
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Post by jamesp on Dec 13, 2019 15:28:15 GMT -5
The odd thing about rotary barrels is their ability to destroy whyofquartz. There is a good reason why the best ones are made of a one piece molded rubber or plastic. It defies me how glue, caulk, adhesives and be undermined in a slow rolling rock tumbler barrel. The constant impact of rocks must work to pump liquid behind the bond. Rhinoliner may cut the mustard. You'd think if anything could it would it get er done. Full contact HDPE butt welds between HDPE pipe faces is the best I could come up with. |
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whyofquartz
spending too much on rocks
So, Africa is smaller than I expected...
Member since December 2019
Posts: 318
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Post by whyofquartz on Dec 13, 2019 15:43:30 GMT -5
The odd thing about rotary barrels is their ability to destroy whyofquartz . There is a good reason why the best ones are made of a one piece molded rubber or plastic. It defies me how glue, caulk, adhesives and be undermined in a slow rolling rock tumbler barrel. The constant impact of rocks must work to pump liquid behind the bond. Rhinoliner may cut the mustard. You'd think if anything could it would it get er done. Full contact HDPE butt welds between HDPE pipe faces is the best I could come up with. I am more than happy yo learn from your mistakes, rather learn from yours than mine. i may try it, i don't even know if the goop would be liquid enough to smear itself around the barrel. i will have to do some pricing HDPE seems cheaper than PVC and epoxy |
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,618
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Post by jamesp on Dec 17, 2019 4:46:31 GMT -5
The odd thing about rotary barrels is their ability to destroy whyofquartz . There is a good reason why the best ones are made of a one piece molded rubber or plastic. It defies me how glue, caulk, adhesives and be undermined in a slow rolling rock tumbler barrel. The constant impact of rocks must work to pump liquid behind the bond. Rhinoliner may cut the mustard. You'd think if anything could it would it get er done. Full contact HDPE butt welds between HDPE pipe faces is the best I could come up with. I am more than happy yo learn from your mistakes, rather learn from yours than mine. i may try it, i don't even know if the goop would be liquid enough to smear itself around the barrel. i will have to do some pricing HDPE seems cheaper than PVC and epoxy HDPE can be had cheaper. It just takes some experience welding it and finding it cheap like used pipe and bulk purchases. I am sourcing HDPE in various forms and working with an HDPE machining shop. Plan on building some barrels for resale perhaps on EBAY. Just tinkering on a small scale. What kind of rotary tumbler do you have whyofquartz ? How will you run an HDPE or PVC barrel on it ? Educate me  |
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whyofquartz
spending too much on rocks
So, Africa is smaller than I expected...
Member since December 2019
Posts: 318
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Post by whyofquartz on Dec 17, 2019 7:19:36 GMT -5
I am more than happy yo learn from your mistakes, rather learn from yours than mine. i may try it, i don't even know if the goop would be liquid enough to smear itself around the barrel. i will have to do some pricing HDPE seems cheaper than PVC and epoxy HDPE can be had cheaper. It just takes some experience welding it and finding it cheap like used pipe and bulk purchases. I am sourcing HDPE in various forms and working with an HDPE machining shop. Plan on building some barrels for resale perhaps on EBAY. Just tinkering on a small scale. What kind of rotary tumbler do you have whyofquartz ? How will you run an HDPE or PVC barrel on it ? Educate me  I currently have a Lortone 3b but i am hoping to build a @drummand Island Rocks/ @jugglerman style tumbling cabinet. I had planned on just buying Lortone barrels to run on it but if i can make them, all the more better. |
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EricD
Cave Dweller
High in the Mountains
Member since November 2019
Posts: 1,142
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Post by EricD on Dec 17, 2019 23:05:16 GMT -5
This guy needs to get into tumbler barrel manufacturing:
Look at the wall thickness on that stuff!
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,618
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Post by jamesp on Dec 26, 2019 6:45:58 GMT -5
HDPE can be had cheaper. It just takes some experience welding it and finding it cheap like used pipe and bulk purchases. I am sourcing HDPE in various forms and working with an HDPE machining shop. Plan on building some barrels for resale perhaps on EBAY. Just tinkering on a small scale. What kind of rotary tumbler do you have whyofquartz ? How will you run an HDPE or PVC barrel on it ? Educate me I currently have a Lortone 3b but i am hoping to build a @drummand Island Rocks/ @jugglerman style tumbling cabinet. I had planned on just buying Lortone barrels to run on it but if i can make them, all the more better. That is a good plan whyofquartz. Chuck used grease able bearings, a good motor and an auto grade v-belt on his tumbler. Such components takes the reliability to another level. |
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,618
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Post by jamesp on Dec 26, 2019 7:24:49 GMT -5
This guy needs to get into tumbler barrel manufacturing: Look at the wall thickness on that stuff!
You have a point EricD. Used or left over HDPE pipe can be had cheap. Often free. It has to be near flawless to be used in pressure applications. Ruptured pressure pipe kills. Even better, damaged pipe is useless, often discarded and costly to dispose of. The fittings are the problem. The end caps and reducer fittings useful for easily making a tumbler barrel will cost. Depending on the weld arrangement specialized equipment is likely needed. I should be test marketing some 6 inch HDPE tumbling barrels on EBAY sometime this year. As soon as the cutting/welding tooling is complete. They will be set up for a single screw easy open band clamped 4 inch rubber cap. Length likely an option be it 10 to 30 inches.  |
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Post by 1dave on Dec 27, 2019 3:58:17 GMT -5
jamesp , on Jul 23, 2014 you wrote:The vibe is the ultimate finisher. Hands down. It's that coarse part that I try to perfect.I know that those rocks have to rub against each other to wear. If they bounce against each other you will get little rubbing... And then I thought about fast rubbing and slow rubbing. Or heavy rubbing and light rubbing in terms of weight or pressure. Or is the 'avalanche' within the small barrel active deeper in the barrel and the bigger barrel acting only on the very top layer of rocks. Shallow water has tall peaky short waves that roll and break and deep water has low long waves that never break. And a tumbler is basically a standing wave or avalanche I guess. So I concluded that the only question (1) is big diameter and slow better than small diameter and fast. And doubt that manufacturers want to deal with a fast spinning tumbler for many reasons such as noise and wear. So I am suspicious of a fast tumble being avoided period. But my experience has been that smaller and faster is most efficient. And the sound in the fast,small diameter barrel sounds like fast rubbing. (2) Is a long barrel better than a short barrel?And maybe I think too much,ha. But thought it worthwhile to experiment with. And (3) is there an optimum speed and diameter? Certainly rock size and fill level would have some influence. If the barrel was 3 inches in diameter i think you would not get much rubbing. If the barrel was 120 inches in diameter I am not sure what all is going on. And does the faster speed spread the grit more evenly? Read more: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/66735/pvc-tumbler-barrel?page=1#ixzz69IOggUtZWhat are your conclusions for 2020? 
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,618
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Post by jamesp on Dec 27, 2019 5:28:37 GMT -5
Nothing has changed for about 6 years other than changing to Carbolon SC silicon carbide and HDPE barrels 3 years ago 1dave. 6" ID HDPE barrels at 60 to 80 rpm for shaping using Carbolon SC silicon carbide and clay base slurry thickener in HDPE barrels on a rugged tumbler. A vibe to finish. I think the noise and faster speeds would be a problem for the average hobbyist though. Looking back I would have been better off starting with HDPE barrels and the Carbolon SC silicon carbide. I easily spent $1000 on SiC 30-46 buying it for $118/50 pounds in the first 3 years tumbling. The Carbolon was like $450 for 1500 pounds(verses $1000 for 450 pounds of 30-46). Granted more cost and shipping hassle upfront but it goes a long way. And it requires tough barrels. |
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Post by 1dave on Dec 27, 2019 13:49:24 GMT -5
Nothing has changed for about 6 years other than changing to Carbolon SC silicon carbide and HDPE barrels 3 years ago 1dave . 6" ID HDPE barrels at 60 to 80 rpm for shaping using Carbolon SC silicon carbide and clay base slurry thickener in HDPE barrels on a rugged tumbler.
A vibe to finish.I think the noise and faster speeds would be a problem for the average hobbyist though. Looking back I would have been better off starting with HDPE barrels and the Carbolon SC silicon carbide. I easily spent $1000 on SiC 30-46 buying it for $118/50 pounds in the first 3 years tumbling. The Carbolon was like $450 for 1500 pounds(verses $1000 for 450 pounds of 30-46). Granted more cost and shipping hassle upfront but it goes a long way. And it requires tough barrels. Tumbling is a three step process: 1. Shaping 2. Smoothing 3. polishing Without your looking forward, beginners would still be starting at square one. What are your recommendations for steps 2 and 3 - especially the engineering like adjusting speed, and vibrations? |
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dkurtz
having dreams about rocks
Tumbling to de-stress from my work. :)
Member since February 2010
Posts: 66 
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Post by dkurtz on Jul 7, 2020 17:14:32 GMT -5
So is HPDE the stuff they make fireworks morter tubes out of?
That is some pretty tough stuff. Oh and neve put a morter in upside down in one. It will blow it out, but it is still very tought stuff.
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ironbrewer
off to a rocking start
Member since December 2020
Posts: 14
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Post by ironbrewer on Jan 8, 2021 0:59:01 GMT -5
HDPE can be had cheaper. It just takes some experience welding it and finding it cheap like used pipe and bulk purchases. I am sourcing HDPE in various forms and working with an HDPE machining shop. Plan on building some barrels for resale perhaps on EBAY. Just tinkering on a small scale. What kind of rotary tumbler do you have whyofquartz ? How will you run an HDPE or PVC barrel on it ? Educate me Did anything ever come of the HDPE barrels for resale. I cannot find HDPE for anywhere reasonable with shipping to me in Washington. In fact I just can't find many prices for it. Heck would love to just get one 6 " HDPE for rough. I could use PVC barrels I am making for the finer steps.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,618
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Post by jamesp on Jan 9, 2021 19:13:04 GMT -5
HDPE can be had cheaper. It just takes some experience welding it and finding it cheap like used pipe and bulk purchases. I am sourcing HDPE in various forms and working with an HDPE machining shop. Plan on building some barrels for resale perhaps on EBAY. Just tinkering on a small scale. What kind of rotary tumbler do you have whyofquartz ? How will you run an HDPE or PVC barrel on it ? Educate me Did anything ever come of the HDPE barrels for resale. I cannot find HDPE for anywhere reasonable with shipping to me in Washington. In fact I just can't find many prices for it. Heck would love to just get one 6 " HDPE for rough. I could use PVC barrels I am making for the finer steps. The whole package is sitting in a big box in the barn with all the necessary components to make 10 - 6 inch barrels and info on suppliers and machining services. I made four 6 inch and four 8 inch barrels out of end cap and reducer fittings each stepping down 1.5 inches in length for various size batches or chasing volume reduction without adding new rocks to a given batch. If you search 'SDR 11(OR 17)HDPE fittings' you should find them. The pipe is best gotten in the form of remants from a plumbing contractor instead of buying 20 foot sticks for only a few barrels. I did not need pipe as the fittings(reducer and end cap) were plenty long to make tumbling barrels. You are right about using PVC for 220-500-1000-polish, they will last forever running those finer abrasives. And PVC will last a long time running SiC 46-60-80-90, but 30 and coarser will wear them out especially at elevated speeds and sticky slurries. Welcome to the forum from the NW of the NW. Sometimes EBAY has deals on overstocked HDPE end caps and reducers. |
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