|
|
Post by jasoninsd on Feb 10, 2022 23:54:50 GMT -5
What I meant was that it was standard advice. I will agree with that. And I'm grateful Jonathan took the time to create a thread giving back to the lapidary community with some kind of advice. We all like to see threads showing our latest creations...but sometimes it's nice to see a thread where someone isn't just posting their latest cabs, wraps, or slabs. Your comment makes it seem like it's a wasted thread and it should just "be known" by everyone. Not everyone has been doing this for decades. Some people are just beginning. Some people need/want to get input and advice from others rather than trying to figure it out on their own...if some people ever do. I've thought about creating a thread about how I work material in specific spots on the wheels of the cabbing machine. But I've only been cabbing on the cabbing machine for two months. I'm a newbie...but I've figured out some things ON MY OWN which I've never seen posted anywhere. Never read about it. Never saw it in a video. I think it would be information that could be helpful to others. I post A LOT of threads about my own creations. I haven't delved yet into the "advice" giving because I'm so new at this. Wouldn't it be great to see "advice" threads - whether they're "standard" information or advanced techniques being put out by SENIOR members of the forum who have the "experience"? I think it would be really interesting to see what advice those with the most experience are willing to share...and how much time they're willing to spend giving to others...like Jonathan just did with this thread. |
|
|
|
Post by holajonathan on Feb 11, 2022 0:04:37 GMT -5
Aren't there "exceptions" to any rule? Wouldn't you agree that the VAST majority of the time, what Jonathan has been posting about here is very valid? What he posted is standard. When I buy or choose material from what I have I try for the exceptions. Thinning a slab is a compensation and everyone needs to do it sometimes. A lot of materials simply look different at different thicknesses regardless of the quality of the specific piece of rough. It's not always an issue of compensating for low grade rough. Like the Montana I posted originally. I wouldn't call that high grade or low grade. You can cut 500+ pounds of Montana agates (which I have) and not find more than one or two like that. My standard practice with most plume agates, moss agates, or other semi-translucent material, is to start at a standard slab thickness -- which for me is a tad under 1/4", and see how it looks. If I don't like it, I will change cut angle and / or mess around with thickness. There are no hard and fast rules for any of this. It's just one variable that should be on your radar if you cut slabs. |
|
|
|
Post by stardiamond on Feb 11, 2022 0:06:20 GMT -5
I try to post about my process, not just the results. Thickness of a slab is only one variable. Maybe this is my personal fallout from the Highland Park webinar on cabbing. The speakers were acting like a slab should be 1/4" or there is going to be problems. That is one of the reasons I made a flat top topic. I don't do doublets and haven't seen very many posted here lately. I like to stay in my comfort zone.
|
|
|
|
Post by jasoninsd on Feb 11, 2022 0:16:46 GMT -5
I try to post about my process, not just the results. Thickness of a slab is only one variable. Maybe this is my personal fallout from the Highland Park webinar on cabbing. The speakers were acting like a slab should be 1/4" or there is going to be problems. That is one of the reasons I made a flat top topic. I don't do doublets and haven't seen very many posted here lately. I like to stay in my comfort zone. "Thickness of a slab is only one variable." - I 100% agree with you...and this thread was created to address that particular variable. I will also agree with you that slabs don't necessarily "need" to be 1/4". I think that's what Jonathan was saying in this thread. He was just giving one particular example as to why slabs don't always need to be - nor should be in some cases - the standard 1/4". I agree. There haven't been a lot of doublets posted in the last couple years. Some...but not many. I know there's a thread on here regarding the creation of doublets. I personally haven't done any because I don't have equipment that I feel could give me an even enough thin cut for the "base" material. I do have some decent material that I'm squirreling away though for when the time comes that I can cut other material thin enough for backing material. |
|
|
|
Post by holajonathan on Feb 11, 2022 0:48:10 GMT -5
I try to post about my process, not just the results. Thickness of a slab is only one variable. Maybe this is my personal fallout from the Highland Park webinar on cabbing. The speakers were acting like a slab should be 1/4" or there is going to be problems. That is one of the reasons I made a flat top topic. I don't do doublets and haven't seen very many posted here lately. I like to stay in my comfort zone. Of course it's only one variable, but it is a variable. Many people talk about slab thickness in terms of dome and girlde height, but not in terms of how the material actually looks at different thicknesses. The bottom line is that any cab with any degree of translucency is going to look different depending on the thickness of the cab. If you've got time for lots of grinding, you can slab everything thick and grind it thinner until you like how it looks. I'd rather spend my time grinding domes than grinding just to thin, so I think about thickness when cutting. Even if you've got the time for extra grinding, slabbing thick by default can waste material and puts unnecessary wear on grinding wheels. Since you search out exceptional and not standard cabbing material, I assume that you do not like to waste exceptional material by slabbing it thicker than necessary. A treatise could be written on all the different variables involved in cabbing, and slab thickness is but one among many. I posted this on the cutting board merely to offer photos of how a Montana agate that I cut this morning looked different when cut at different thicknesses. I thought it was interesting. Some others may as well. |
|
|
|
Post by rockjunquie on Feb 11, 2022 1:03:42 GMT -5
Great discussion guys! Thank you, Jonathan. I think it really helps to look at different ways of doing things... and why. I suggested that you post this because a lot of people may not be thinking of the best ways to cut their material.
|
|
stuckinohio
starting to shine!
Member since September 2021
Posts: 31
|
Post by stuckinohio on Feb 12, 2022 0:36:51 GMT -5
But does the thinness of the slab impact how big you can go with a cab with material like this? If you're making a cab with a biggish amount of surface area, I'd imagine the slimmer slabs might be more prone to cracking or spalling while cabbing, whereas thicker slabs might hold up better? I like big cabs and I cannot lie. Okay...the last part made me chuckle! LOL I think if you're planning on making a belt buckle sized cab, then yes...you might have to worry making the cab too thin. However, with the vast majority of cabs a person would make, a thinner cab isn't going to be unstable. Instability would come from unseen (or seen) fractures in the stone - and thickness may or may not save that. You have to remember, most cabs are going to be put into a wire-wrap for a pendant, or a setting for a ring or pendant (etc.). If it's in a setting, stability is added from the setting. If it's a wire-wrapped pendant, like Jonathan told me not long ago: It'll be just fine unless you're in the middle of a bar fight...and then it might sustain some damage...but that would be expected! LOL Absolutely, if something is set correctly, I don't see it breaking, unless the barfight is WILD. I was thinking more along the lines of stability during the cabbing process. I swear it was one of you- either holajonathan or jasoninsd- who posted a while back about the application of pressure on the cabbing wheels during the process, and how a little heavier pressure can lead to better results (I apologize if it was a different user who posted this; I should un-lazy myself and link to it)... In my mind I am imagining the possibility of heavier pressure leading to a fracture on a skinny cab. I started out cabbing Flint and Jasper that I sourced from Ohio and Michigan, and just recently sourced big enough agates in the wild to start cabbing- a good idea for me might be to actually start experimenting with slab thickness myself and see if pressure makes any difference, along with cab size and post my results! |
|
realrockhound
Cave Dweller 
Chucking leaverite at tweekers
Member since June 2020
Posts: 4,499
|
Post by realrockhound on Feb 12, 2022 0:56:25 GMT -5
I consider myself the undisputed king of plumes. So let me tell ya, this is actually a beneficial thread. Especially when you have a material that has great potential, but finding it hard to work with. Slab it thin, and turn it into a nice doublet. I’ve seen some insanely beautiful doublets of stinking water that would have been subpar cabs at 1/4 inch.
|
|
|
|
Post by jasoninsd on Feb 12, 2022 1:02:23 GMT -5
Okay...the last part made me chuckle! LOL I think if you're planning on making a belt buckle sized cab, then yes...you might have to worry making the cab too thin. However, with the vast majority of cabs a person would make, a thinner cab isn't going to be unstable. Instability would come from unseen (or seen) fractures in the stone - and thickness may or may not save that. You have to remember, most cabs are going to be put into a wire-wrap for a pendant, or a setting for a ring or pendant (etc.). If it's in a setting, stability is added from the setting. If it's a wire-wrapped pendant, like Jonathan told me not long ago: It'll be just fine unless you're in the middle of a bar fight...and then it might sustain some damage...but that would be expected! LOL Absolutely, if something is set correctly, I don't see it breaking, unless the barfight is WILD. I was thinking more along the lines of stability during the cabbing process. I swear it was one of you- either holajonathan or jasoninsd - who posted a while back about the application of pressure on the cabbing wheels during the process, and how a little heavier pressure can lead to better results (I apologize if it was a different user who posted this; I should un-lazy myself and link to it)... In my mind I am imagining the possibility of heavier pressure leading to a fracture on a skinny cab. I started out cabbing Flint and Jasper that I sourced from Ohio and Michigan, and just recently sourced big enough agates in the wild to start cabbing- a good idea for me might be to actually start experimenting with slab thickness myself and see if pressure makes any difference, along with cab size and post my results! That's actually a really great question! I don't recall talking about it, so it could have been holajonathan who said something about it. I will say something about it now. LOL - Even at 1/8" thick, it would take a LOT of pressure to break that cab. However, I have cabbed pieces that I thought were unstable do to a hidden fracture. When I was working those, I made sure to apply pressure on the back of the cab where it was contacting the wheel. Jonathan would have an easier time doing this because he doesn't always dop his cabs...thus he can easily apply pressure directly. Since I dop mine, I either apply pressure in front of, or behind the dop as necessary. If I had a long thin cab that was dopped and applied heavy pressure to one end of the cab while holding the dop, then I suppose I might worry about breaking the cab...but again, that's a lot of pressure...and I can avoid any problems by using my thumb to apply pressure directly behind the contact point on the wheel. (I'm not sure if I'm talking in circles or making any sense! LOL - I understand what I'm saying. LOL) Another thing that can be done to stabilize a "thin" cab while working it is to use excessive dop wax on the back of the cab - so it covers the entire (or majority) of the back of the cab. Or, in my case, I use super glue to attach the dops...and I use a lot! LOL Brent ( Starguy) just made a thread about dopping this way and has some good pics: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/98014/dopping |
|
|
|
Post by holajonathan on Feb 12, 2022 1:55:07 GMT -5
Okay...the last part made me chuckle! LOL I think if you're planning on making a belt buckle sized cab, then yes...you might have to worry making the cab too thin. However, with the vast majority of cabs a person would make, a thinner cab isn't going to be unstable. Instability would come from unseen (or seen) fractures in the stone - and thickness may or may not save that. You have to remember, most cabs are going to be put into a wire-wrap for a pendant, or a setting for a ring or pendant (etc.). If it's in a setting, stability is added from the setting. If it's a wire-wrapped pendant, like Jonathan told me not long ago: It'll be just fine unless you're in the middle of a bar fight...and then it might sustain some damage...but that would be expected! LOL Absolutely, if something is set correctly, I don't see it breaking, unless the barfight is WILD. I was thinking more along the lines of stability during the cabbing process. I swear it was one of you- either holajonathan or jasoninsd - who posted a while back about the application of pressure on the cabbing wheels during the process, and how a little heavier pressure can lead to better results (I apologize if it was a different user who posted this; I should un-lazy myself and link to it)... In my mind I am imagining the possibility of heavier pressure leading to a fracture on a skinny cab. I started out cabbing Flint and Jasper that I sourced from Ohio and Michigan, and just recently sourced big enough agates in the wild to start cabbing- a good idea for me might be to actually start experimenting with slab thickness myself and see if pressure makes any difference, along with cab size and post my results! Unless the rock already has unstable fractures, it will not break from hard pressure during cabbing even if it is cut thin. That is certainly true of agates and jaspers, although probably true of pretty much all rocks. At least that's my experience. If you were to slab rocks at something like 1/8" thick, I suppose one might break for no good reason. But there are few good reasons to cut a slab less than 3/16" thick, and at that thickness, fracture free rocks are very strong. If you experiment and post results, I'd be happy to give any feedback I might have, and so would many others.  |
|
|
|
Post by holajonathan on Feb 12, 2022 1:59:37 GMT -5
Absolutely, if something is set correctly, I don't see it breaking, unless the barfight is WILD. I was thinking more along the lines of stability during the cabbing process. I swear it was one of you- either holajonathan or jasoninsd - who posted a while back about the application of pressure on the cabbing wheels during the process, and how a little heavier pressure can lead to better results (I apologize if it was a different user who posted this; I should un-lazy myself and link to it)... In my mind I am imagining the possibility of heavier pressure leading to a fracture on a skinny cab. I started out cabbing Flint and Jasper that I sourced from Ohio and Michigan, and just recently sourced big enough agates in the wild to start cabbing- a good idea for me might be to actually start experimenting with slab thickness myself and see if pressure makes any difference, along with cab size and post my results! That's actually a really great question! I don't recall talking about it, so it could have been holajonathan who said something about it. I will say something about it now. LOL - Even at 1/8" thick, it would take a LOT of pressure to break that cab. However, I have cabbed pieces that I thought were unstable do to a hidden fracture. When I was working those, I made sure to apply pressure on the back of the cab where it was contacting the wheel. Jonathan would have an easier time doing this because he doesn't always dop his cabs...thus he can easily apply pressure directly. Since I dop mine, I either apply pressure in front of, or behind the dop as necessary. If I had a long thin cab that was dopped and applied heavy pressure to one end of the cab while holding the dop, then I suppose I might worry about breaking the cab...but again, that's a lot of pressure...and I can avoid any problems by using my thumb to apply pressure directly behind the contact point on the wheel. (I'm not sure if I'm talking in circles or making any sense! LOL - I understand what I'm saying. LOL) Another thing that can be done to stabilize a "thin" cab while working it is to use excessive dop wax on the back of the cab - so it covers the entire (or majority) of the back of the cab. Or, in my case, I use super glue to attach the dops...and I use a lot! LOL Brent ( Starguy ) just made a thread about dopping this way and has some good pics: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/98014/doppingIve got a jasper slab sliver that is 1/16" thick. I cut it by accident by not cranking the crossfeed forward far enough on my slab saw. It is Biggs Jasper, and I can't snap in half with my fingers. It looks like I should be able to. I'm not that weak. But I've tried to snap it while thinking about my mother-in-law, and even this extra boost of rage was not enough. (Just joking, my MIL is the best!) |
|
|
|
Post by jasoninsd on Feb 12, 2022 2:01:36 GMT -5
That's actually a really great question! I don't recall talking about it, so it could have been holajonathan who said something about it. I will say something about it now. LOL - Even at 1/8" thick, it would take a LOT of pressure to break that cab. However, I have cabbed pieces that I thought were unstable do to a hidden fracture. When I was working those, I made sure to apply pressure on the back of the cab where it was contacting the wheel. Jonathan would have an easier time doing this because he doesn't always dop his cabs...thus he can easily apply pressure directly. Since I dop mine, I either apply pressure in front of, or behind the dop as necessary. If I had a long thin cab that was dopped and applied heavy pressure to one end of the cab while holding the dop, then I suppose I might worry about breaking the cab...but again, that's a lot of pressure...and I can avoid any problems by using my thumb to apply pressure directly behind the contact point on the wheel. (I'm not sure if I'm talking in circles or making any sense! LOL - I understand what I'm saying. LOL) Another thing that can be done to stabilize a "thin" cab while working it is to use excessive dop wax on the back of the cab - so it covers the entire (or majority) of the back of the cab. Or, in my case, I use super glue to attach the dops...and I use a lot! LOL Brent ( Starguy ) just made a thread about dopping this way and has some good pics: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/98014/doppingIve got a jasper slab sliver that is 1/16" of an inch thick. I cut it by accident by not cranking the crossfeed forward far enough on my slab saw. It is Biggs Jasper, and I can't snap in half with my fingers. It looks like I should be able to, and I'm not that weak. But I've tried to snap it while thinking about my mother-in-law, and even this extra boost of rage was not enough. (Just joking, my MIL is the best!)  |
|
|
|
Post by holajonathan on Feb 12, 2022 2:05:23 GMT -5
I consider myself the undisputed king of plumes. So let me tell ya, this is actually a beneficial thread. Especially when you have a material that has great potential, but finding it hard to work with. Slab it thin, and turn it into a nice doublet. I’ve seen some insanely beautiful doublets of stinking water that would have been subpar cabs at 1/4 inch. I'm going to call you "The Undisputed King of Plumes" going forward. You do have some rather princely plume agates, so the name fits. When you find and bring to market the next big deal in plume agates, you can call it The Undisputed King of Plume Agates. That would only be slightly more ridiculous than some of these names people come up with... |
|
realrockhound
Cave Dweller
Chucking leaverite at tweekers
Member since June 2020
Posts: 4,499
|
Post by realrockhound on Feb 12, 2022 2:10:20 GMT -5
I consider myself the undisputed king of plumes. So let me tell ya, this is actually a beneficial thread. Especially when you have a material that has great potential, but finding it hard to work with. Slab it thin, and turn it into a nice doublet. I’ve seen some insanely beautiful doublets of stinking water that would have been subpar cabs at 1/4 inch. I'm going to call you "The Undisputed King of Plumes" going forward. You do have some rather princely plume agates, so the name fits. When you find and bring to market the next big deal in plume agates, you can call it The Undisputed King of Plume Agates. That would only be slightly more ridiculous than some of these names people come up with... I’m telling you right now, if I come across a deposit of plume that will buy me a new house. I 100% will name it the “undisputed king of plumes” 😂 |
|
|
|
Post by holajonathan on Feb 12, 2022 2:22:26 GMT -5
I'm going to call you "The Undisputed King of Plumes" going forward. You do have some rather princely plume agates, so the name fits. When you find and bring to market the next big deal in plume agates, you can call it The Undisputed King of Plume Agates. That would only be slightly more ridiculous than some of these names people come up with...  I’m telling you right now, if I come across a deposit of plume that will buy me a new house. I 100% will name it the “undisputed king of plumes” 😂 If you name an agate the "undisputed king of plumes" and charge $100 a pound for it, you will become famous (or infamous) in lapidary circles even if the material isn't that good. To buy a new house, however, it probably has to live up to its name. Do me a favor. When this happens, make sure you include a story about how impossibly difficult it was to dig. Something like.... you could only identify the vein during a full moon, on a leap year, when Jupiter reached its apex in the midnight sky. After scraping away the rhyolite matrix for a week with nothing but your fingernails, you had to trek barefoot through crocodile invested swamps for three days with only as much material as you could fit in your backpack. And you were so committed to bringing back as much as possible, you discarded all food and water, forcing yourself to survive my licking the morning dew off of switchgrass, resulting in deep lacerations to your tongue. You know the stories. The ones that "justify" high prices for new materials... |
|
realrockhound
Cave Dweller
Chucking leaverite at tweekers
Member since June 2020
Posts: 4,499
|
Post by realrockhound on Feb 12, 2022 2:25:29 GMT -5
I’m telling you right now, if I come across a deposit of plume that will buy me a new house. I 100% will name it the “undisputed king of plumes” 😂 If you name an agate the "undisputed king of plumes" and charge $100 a pound for it, you will become famous (or infamous) in lapidary circles even if the material isn't that good. To buy a new house, however, it probably has to live up to its name. Do me a favor. When this happens, make sure you include a story about how impossibly difficult it was to dig. Something like.... you could only identify the vein during a full moon, on a leap year, when Jupiter reached its apex in the midnight sky. After scraping away the rhyolite matrix for a week with nothing but your fingernails, you had to trek barefoot through crocodile invested swamps for three days with only as much material as you could fit in your backpack. And you were so committed to bringing back as much as possible, you discarded all food and water, forcing yourself to survive my licking the morning dew off of switchgrass, resulting in deep lacerations to your tongue. You know the stories. The ones that "justify" high prices for new materials... Oh don’t worry, I will. I’ll even tell people I had to hike 10 miles, up hill each way, in the snow and ice 🤣🤣🤣. An epic back in my day story to tell the pebble pups. |
|
|
|
Post by holajonathan on Feb 12, 2022 2:29:05 GMT -5
If you name an agate the "undisputed king of plumes" and charge $100 a pound for it, you will become famous (or infamous) in lapidary circles even if the material isn't that good. To buy a new house, however, it probably has to live up to its name. Do me a favor. When this happens, make sure you include a story about how impossibly difficult it was to dig. Something like.... you could only identify the vein during a full moon, on a leap year, when Jupiter reached its apex in the midnight sky. After scraping away the rhyolite matrix for a week with nothing but your fingernails, you had to trek barefoot through crocodile invested swamps for three days with only as much material as you could fit in your backpack. And you were so committed to bringing back as much as possible, you discarded all food and water, forcing yourself to survive my licking the morning dew off of switchgrass, resulting in deep lacerations to your tongue. You know the stories. The ones that "justify" high prices for new materials... Oh don’t worry, I will. I’ll even tell people I had to hike 10 miles, up hill each way, in the snow and ice 🤣🤣🤣. An epic back in my day story to tell the pebble pups. When the truth is, you're cruising around in your side-by-side ATV. But If you want that new house, the material has got to have a story. |
|
|
|
Post by parfive on Feb 12, 2022 2:39:33 GMT -5
|
|
realrockhound
Cave Dweller
Chucking leaverite at tweekers
Member since June 2020
Posts: 4,499
|
Post by realrockhound on Feb 12, 2022 2:47:06 GMT -5
yo!!!! Those are fantastic. Also, thanks for linking those. That backs up what I was saying about working with certain cuts of plume. Those are all grade A+. |
|
brybry
Cave Dweller
Enter your message here...
Member since October 2021
Posts: 1,221
|
Post by brybry on Feb 12, 2022 7:27:10 GMT -5
If you name an agate the "undisputed king of plumes" and charge $100 a pound for it, you will become famous (or infamous) in lapidary circles even if the material isn't that good. To buy a new house, however, it probably has to live up to its name. Do me a favor. When this happens, make sure you include a story about how impossibly difficult it was to dig. Something like.... you could only identify the vein during a full moon, on a leap year, when Jupiter reached its apex in the midnight sky. After scraping away the rhyolite matrix for a week with nothing but your fingernails, you had to trek barefoot through crocodile invested swamps for three days with only as much material as you could fit in your backpack. And you were so committed to bringing back as much as possible, you discarded all food and water, forcing yourself to survive my licking the morning dew off of switchgrass, resulting in deep lacerations to your tongue. You know the stories. The ones that "justify" high prices for new materials... Oh don’t worry, I will. I’ll even tell people I had to hike 10 miles, up hill each way, in the snow and ice 🤣🤣🤣. An epic back in my day story to tell the pebble pups. We already have a good back story on your frozen angel wing you dug out in a blizzard,lol. |
|
